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Old 06-21-2013, 09:50 PM   #1
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Default miata turbo, white smoke idle issues, the lot...

Hi all,

This is my first post so go easy on me if i'm being a noob

My 93 red 1.6 decided to blow it's tubo seals today on the saab 9000 garrett t25 i'm using. This caused the obvious effect of dumping oil into the inlet and burning it, creating huge clouds of white smoke out the exhaust.

I decided to bypass the turbo to get me home by sending air coming through the filter straight to the TB, as a standard NA would, letting the already dead turbo spin away without dumping oil into the TB - Having done this i thought the white smoke would eventually clear but it's still smoking alot. It's not as bad as it was but after a 40 mile trip seems too much for my liking.

Does this sound normal to anyone? My thinking is that oil's still making its way through the hot end of the turbo into the downpipe and burning out of the exhaust.

Things to know beforehand are that a few weeks ago it developed a loud distinct tapping in the engine, which would increase with revs, but after an oil change went away. The tapping sometimes starts again very quietly but goes away when warmed up. This is usually after the car has been sat for a few days. I've read this can be the HLC? Which to be honest i have no idea what this stands for.

Another baffling point is that the car struggles to idle unless the blowers inside the car are on the 2 position. With them off it will stall itself. This has been happening since i got the car but i put it down to the way its being fueled (actuator not ECU)

I was expecting it to perform close to a normal NA without the turbo attached, but it seems really down on power - i might be talking rubbish here but is normal to feel so much slower than a standard 1.6? Obviously the turbo is still attached to the manifold so backpressure won't be having the same effect as with a normal manifold, but this is leading me to think the engine could have some damage what with it still seeming to create large clouds of white smoke. Possible headgasket?

So to waffle on, just want to get all the facts in to give a good idea of the problem.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:47 AM   #2
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I have now removed the turbo manifold which has revealed that cylinder 1 shows clear signs of oil getting in. Thing aren't looking good :( Can anyone recommend from experience what is most likely to have gone wrong?

My guesses are valve stem seals, possible bend rod or shot piston rings. The good news is i have a spare engine sitting in the garage, but it its economical to fix the current engine i might as well save myself the hassle.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:55 AM   #3
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I have now removed the turbo manifold which has revealed that cylinder 1 shows clear signs of oil getting in. Thing aren't looking good :( Can anyone recommend from experience what is most likely to have gone wrong?

My guesses are valve stem seals, possible bend rod or shot piston rings. The good news is i have a spare engine sitting in the garage, but it its economical to fix the current engine i might as well save myself the hassle.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks
if oil is getting in on cyl1 exhaust outlet, it is likely the valve... i would check inside the cylinder and see if it is wet with oil... basically just try to see if there is oil anywhere else. dont just stop at the exhaust outlet. backtrack until you find no oil. just double check everything.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:38 PM   #4
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if oil is getting in on cyl1 exhaust outlet, it is likely the valve... i would check inside the cylinder and see if it is wet with oil... basically just try to see if there is oil anywhere else. dont just stop at the exhaust outlet. backtrack until you find no oil. just double check everything.
Thanks for the quick response

I think I'm gonna swap engines over and run it NA while I try to diagnose what's gone on with the turbo's block. This way I can try and avoid the problem if I decide to turbo the new engine or look to repair the damaged one. There's not much in it as they're both 1.6 and around the same milleage so the old block might just be used as a learning curve.

I'm also wondering why no one seems to recomend uprating their head gaskets as I thought this would be essential for a turbo build?

Thanks
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:59 PM   #5
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Uprating as in going to a thicker gasket?
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Old 06-25-2013, 03:03 PM   #6
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Uprating as in going to a thicker gasket?
Yeah or something similar
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Old 06-25-2013, 03:05 PM   #7
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Thanks for the quick response

I think I'm gonna swap engines over and run it NA while I try to diagnose what's gone on with the turbo's block. This way I can try and avoid the problem if I decide to turbo the new engine or look to repair the damaged one. There's not much in it as they're both 1.6 and around the same milleage so the old block might just be used as a learning curve.

I'm also wondering why no one seems to recomend uprating their head gaskets as I thought this would be essential for a turbo build?

Thanks
the stock steel gasket is plenty strong enough, even for a boosted build... but besides that, theres no need replacing the gasket if its not leaking. if its sealed, leave it sealed. Cometic and a few other companies out there make reputable gaskets, but they arent necessary on our platforms. i blew a gasket, and replaced it with the stock mazda steel gasket... sprayed it with clear ceramic paint, let it get slightly tacky, then cranked down the cylinder head. the paint isnt necessary... just makes an improved seal. (reccomended to me by a Mazda tech)
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Old 06-25-2013, 03:20 PM   #8
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Yeah or something similar
Because its utterly idiotic and counter productive.

Thicker gaskets have no business on a B6 or BP.


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the stock steel gasket is plenty strong enough, even for a boosted build... but besides that, theres no need replacing the gasket if its not leaking. if its sealed, leave it sealed. Cometic and a few other companies out there make reputable gaskets, but they arent necessary on our platforms. i blew a gasket, and replaced it with the stock mazda steel gasket... sprayed it with clear ceramic paint, let it get slightly tacky, then cranked down the cylinder head. the paint isnt necessary... just makes an improved seal. (reccomended to me by a Mazda tech)
Stop giving advice without knowing what you're talking about dude.

I swear I went through MONTHS of this garbage with Leafy. Now you. If you don't KNOW, just don't post. Don't blindly regurgitate what you heard or saw others say or post somewhere at some time. No offense.

The 1.6 gasket is not steel. Cometic makes mls replacement for the 1.6.
The reason its not good to go thicker is because you're degrading the combustion chamber on a car that already has low compression and designed for boost, and absolutely doesn't need it at all.

Basically this isn't some stupid honda with 12:1 compression that needs a thicker gasket to run boost on pump gas.
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Old 06-25-2013, 03:30 PM   #9
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Thicker HG = reduced quench = MOAR detonation than a higher comp engine with a proper gasket.
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Old 06-25-2013, 03:35 PM   #10
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Because its utterly idiotic and counter productive.

Thicker gaskets have no business on a B6 or BP.



Stop giving advice without knowing what you're talking about dude.

I swear I went through MONTHS of this garbage with Leafy. Now you. If you don't KNOW, just don't post. Don't blindly regurgitate what you heard or saw others say or post somewhere at some time. No offense.

The 1.6 gasket is not steel. Cometic makes mls replacement for the 1.6.
The reason its not good to go thicker is because you're degrading the combustion chamber on a car that already has low compression and designed for boost, and absolutely doesn't need it at all.

Basically this isn't some stupid honda with 12:1 compression that needs a thicker gasket to run boost on pump gas.
what is it then? Mazda packaging on mine was labeled steel...
and i was telling him to use the stock gasket... is this not true?
as for not knowing what im talking about... i may not know everything, neither do i claim to.. but i graduated from CTC in 2011 with an associates in automotive, so i have SOME automotive knowledge... and only use this site to learn more . if i say something blatantly wrong, please correct me with an explanation.... dont just say "you are wrong"
i take criticizm very well, as i too am still learning. but i still see nothing wrong with my comment above (aside from the paint suggestion given to me by a tech i worked with at Sellers Ford-lincoln-Mazda)
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Old 06-25-2013, 04:20 PM   #11
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what is it then? Mazda packaging on mine was labeled steel...
and i was telling him to use the stock gasket... is this not true?
as for not knowing what im talking about... i may not know everything, neither do i claim to.. but i graduated from CTC in 2011 with an associates in automotive, so i have SOME automotive knowledge... and only use this site to learn more . if i say something blatantly wrong, please correct me with an explanation.... dont just say "you are wrong"
i take criticizm very well, as i too am still learning. but i still see nothing wrong with my comment above (aside from the paint suggestion given to me by a tech i worked with at Sellers Ford-lincoln-Mazda)
there is a CLEAR pattern here.
You, Leafy, and many others: Lots of school knowledge, very little hands on knowledge. So you preach what you were preached, and often its flat out wrong.

Anyways, I have nothing against you and you seem to come off positive and helpful, but you didn't answer his question. You simply regurgitated something you've heard elsewhere without really knowing why the comment was made in teh 1st place. So you weren't wrong, just misguided.

The gaskets on 1.6 are graphite or composite or whatever that crap is called.
Replacing them with MLS is a good idea. No reason to go thicker than stock though.

My apologies if I came off too harsh
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Old 06-25-2013, 04:27 PM   #12
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there is a CLEAR pattern here.
You, Leafy, and many others: Lots of school knowledge, very little hands on knowledge. So you preach what you were preached, and often its flat out wrong.

Anyways, I have nothing against you and you seem to come off positive and helpful, but you didn't answer his question. You simply regurgitated something you've heard elsewhere without really knowing why the comment was made in teh 1st place. So you weren't wrong, just misguided.

The gaskets on 1.6 are graphite or composite or whatever that crap is called.
Replacing them with MLS is a good idea. No reason to go thicker than stock though.

My apologies if I came off too harsh
no man, its cool... ive always looked toward your posts for guidance. lol
yeah... the school thing... thats why i look elsewhere for knowledge, and dont claim to know EVERYTHING... haha i just have a decent base to build on, as opposed to being completely clueless. lol
BUT... MOST automotive instructors are VERY biased, and usually "old-school" so i began look elsewhere for anything im not too sure of. I was hoping i would know everything by graduating automotive school, but that ended up being FAR from the case. lol Im learning something new everyday, especially on here. looking forward to going MS, but im still researching so i dont get in too deep over my head.

what does the MLS stand for???
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Old 06-25-2013, 04:29 PM   #13
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multi-layered steel
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Old 06-25-2013, 04:59 PM   #14
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1) The b6 has a weird composite gasket as mentioned and the stock one is pretty awesome. you don't need to spray it with anything.

2) the bp mls gaskets typically come with some sort of coating. DO NOT spray them. some people do and sure it may work but it was already designed with a sealant on it.

Copper spray is what old hot rodders use on shitty non mls gaskets. I'm sure there are others that disagree with me but based on MY PERSONAL experience on b6 & bp the information above is true.

MLS as vlad stated is multi layered steel. If you look at them you will notice they are made of several thin pieces of steel stacked and attached to each other. MLS gaskets require the block and head to be completely flat. Other gaskets are much more forgiving than mls gaskets.

If you have a b6 and are considering putting a mls gasket instead of the oem id have the head checked at a minimum for warping. The block isn't a bad idea either but less likely to be warped.
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:06 PM   #15
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Wow guys I seem to have started some sort of bromance right now Jokes asside its nice to know this is a site with more positive thinking members and not people just trying to one up each other.

I am keen to get the right head gasket on the new engine to avoid and chance of running into similar problems when I re-turbo everything. To be honest I'm a little put off and I don't even know what's happened to the old engine yet.

It might be worth knowing that fueling is dealt with by a BEGI fuel regulator and not megasquirt or mapping software. I don't know if this could be a contributor to fried piston rings etc - running too lean perhaps? Obviously I just want to do everything properly to save the new block.
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:13 PM   #16
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Wow guys I seem to have started some sort of bromance right now Jokes asside its nice to know this is a site with more positive thinking members and not people just trying to one up each other.

I am keen to get the right head gasket on the new engine to avoid and chance of running into similar problems when I re-turbo everything. To be honest I'm a little put off and I don't even know what's happened to the old engine yet.

It might be worth knowing that fueling is dealt with by a BEGI fuel regulator and not megasquirt or mapping software. I don't know if this could be a contributor to fried piston rings etc - running too lean perhaps? Obviously I just want to do everything properly to save the new block.
could be running too lean, could be running too rich... the BEGI RRFPR works, as in... does what its supposed to... but you really should hop on the MS wagon, with some apropriate injectors, or you may end up playing this game alot

my sig pic right below
you can see the BEGI RRFPR...
it is aids
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:18 PM   #17
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Obviously I just want to do everything properly to save the new block.
good.

ditch the bandAIDZ then
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:58 PM   #18
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could be running too lean, could be running too rich... the BEGI RRFPR works, as in... does what its supposed to... but you really should hop on the MS wagon, with some apropriate injectors, or you may end up playing this game alot

my sig pic right below
you can see the BEGI RRFPR...
it is aids
Right well starting to see that cutting corners on cost isn't worth the results, as always.

Why are the regulators so bad? And is this likely to be the cause of my engine damage? I think I know the answers, but be good to hear peoples opinions as I imagine plenty will just run the regulators.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:02 PM   #19
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Right well starting to see that cutting corners on cost isn't worth the results, as always.

Why are the regulators so bad? And is this likely to be the cause of my engine damage? I think I know the answers, but be good to hear peoples opinions as I imagine plenty will just run the regulators.
the regulators arent "bad"... they do what they are supposed to... BUT... basically, if you are running stock injectors (or stock-ish) and that FPR, you are just forcing the injectors to flow more than they were designed to, by creating a crapload of pressure on the rail side of the injectors. instead of running injectors that can handle the load, and a standalone that can run them, which would allow you to PROPERLY tune your AFRs getting the max potential you can out of your setup SAFELY.

the FPR fixes one problem, but in turn creates another... you can never tune the setup perfectly.
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:23 AM   #20
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Thanks for all the help so far. I see that you are (or were?) currently running a FPR and wondered if you've had similar issues? I'm guessing the danger of these is that they can run too lean or rich with no form of monitoring or warning, causing possible damage to the rings.

I don't have a problem running a FPR as i was only up to around 5psi of boost, and joke all you like but i was fairly happy with that. However if this is directly related to my cylinder issues above i'd rather stay NA until i can afford the proper MS setup.
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