Nuts and Studs- My shit is loose!
 

Nothing gay in here, just legit hardware stuff.

So, I've been using shitty non-recommended nuts from autozone on mani/dp. It takes them about 2 months to get a little loose and I just tighten them every time I'm under there. I didn't get them in time and 3 nuts on my mani backed out leaving the whole weight of the turbo/dp on one stud. It broke off in the mani.

I called Corky and he said to mail him the mani and turbine housing and they'd drill/tap them for larger studs. I don't mind paying for that, but I don't hear about this being a big problem, so I just think I need better nuts.

I'm going to have the stud drilled out at a machine shop by somebody with the right tools... and then I'm going to buy proper nuts. If I still have problems, I'll send it to Corky in a few months.

Corky said he didn't think brass nuts could be trusted at that heat. I tried the nuts that are oval on the top side and they just back out the stud when I need to remove them and then I destroy the stud getting them off... no good. What about lock-washers? I don't think they make a threadlocker to take those temps? Locking wire?

What have other people found for solutions?
Links to purchase sites appreciated if you've got'em.

two options I'd try:

1) Serated Flange Nuts (require more torque to remove than to install and don't pooch the studs)

2) safety wire the fuckers.

Sam, do the studs stay planted and the nuts come loose? Or does the whole stud come out, nut attached?

If former, you need this
http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?...umber=36-30300
If latter, you need to retap for bigger studs (I've had the latter, and beleive that the threads in the head must have stripped from over tightening.)

To get a stud out of the head, you need to do the double nut trick. Thread one nut on the stud, then add a second nut on top of it. With a wrench, apply counter-clockwise rotation to the nut closer to the motor. The second nut on top of it will capture the first nut, so the torque you add will go to breaking the stud out of the head. That's the only way I know of that will remove a stud without damaging it.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/135/studlytw4.png

Sam if you are going to take it into a machine shop to have the stud removed, get the manifold drilled and re-tapped for a larger stud now. No point in half assing it at this point.

The studs stay in fine... it's the nuts that come loose.
Those washers you linked look like the business. What kind of nuts should I use with them.

I'm up to speed on the double-nut trick. I've tightened up the 3 remaining nuts until I can figure out a solution. I just need a nut recommendation and I'm good I think. I'll order from FM today unless those are available elsewhere.

mcmaster.com

Search for "lock washer" then click on wedge lock.

For nuts search "nuts", click "nuts", click "locking nuts", click "distorted thread".

Why do you need to remove the studs (using the oval nuts)? I'd rather just buy new studs when the time comes, use the oval nuts, and not worry about them backing off.

Frank

I requested a sample directly from Nordlock, took a while to get them but it was free :) Think I ended up with 10 all in the same size (3/8")

On my DSM I always used the factory hardware on the manifold, which included washers and copper nuts. Some people tried using SS "upgraded" hardware they'd get at True Value but SS is shit for turbo hardware. Torque specs were 22lb/ft, they'd break if you went too far beyond that. They never backed off. Have you tried torquing everything when it's hot? My turbo bolts backed off so I torqued them a few lbs loose, drove the shit out of it and torqued them to full spec, they never backed off again.

People trying to "upgrade" to SS hardware proves that overthinking can be bad. When in doubt look at what the OEM does. There's a reason you don't have to re-torque your OEM manifold every two weeks.

Safety wire the little bastards. I did this on turbo installation 53,000 miles and 3 years ago. Never had one come loose since. A bit more work up front but saves time later.
Barry

This thread makes me nervous. I'm using brass nuts on stainless lock washer. I haven't had to retighten since the preliminary retightening, but we'll see...

I've found that just one round of re-tightening is enough for mine.
Not like I've checked in a while though. Maybe I'll put that on the list.

I just use your conventional flange head bolts for my dp. For the turbo to mani connection, I am using stainless locking studs with stainless castle nuts, and I have never had a problem. You can only get them in standard sizes, no metric.
-Michael-

Corky sent distorted thread nuts with his DP FWIW.

Frank

Two choices,

1.Nord-lock washers with stover nuts.

2.stage 8 nuts and studs. www.stage8.com

I hear that, but there's precious little room on the turbine housing. Bigger stud means bigger nut means bigger wrench and there's no room to a bigger wrench on it I think.

I got the distorted nuts originally with my DP form Begi, but the first time I had to take them off, they jammed on the studs and I had to pull the studs out and broke 2... which was a main imptetus to ditch the DSM Frankenturbo and get an SR20det T25 (best move ever). Maybe it was a fluke with old studs.

I'm gonna order those ratchet-nuts from FM and use some old ratchet nuts I have from a previous purchase... maybe try some locking wire as well. I'll take pics and let y'all know.

wtf you guys have nut problems like mad.

go to ATPturbo.com and order their copper coated nuts. they wont come loose after the first tightening.

they're AKA jetnuts, stover nuts, distorted thread nuts.

similarly you can go to an Audi dealer and order their turbo nuts--same thing basically and about 1/4 the price of the porsche branded ones.

or you can take your chances with whatever mcmaster sells (search 'stover nuts') but I dont trust them as much.

Matt

^^^^I use these nuts and never had to re-tighten any of them.

I kept a full set of studs and nuts on hand so that anytime I had to R&R the manifold I could replace any suspect studs, they are hand tight in the head so they do tend to back out, and I also broke a few over the years. Just replace them, it's not a big deal and should be expected for those of us who like to tinker. If you haven't R&R'd as many manifolds as I have I can see why this might be unexpected or seem like a big deal but it really is normal.

Use the stover nuts and just plan on replacing a few studs every time you R&R the manifold. That's life.

Have you already try to remove the broken stud using an easy out?
http://www.toolprice.com/product/6710A
(you drill a hole into the broken stud and the easy out( looks like a tap with reversed thread ) turns the stud out off the manifold.

Worked perfect on my old greddy manifold.

(use stainless steal, raiser sharp drill, as the metal is very hard to drill into...Use a centerpoint to get in the middle off the hole and drill slowly and oil the drill with wd40 . Those drills get damaged easy from the heat. And yeah those drills are expensive...about 10dollar a piece)

For what it's worth, i use the fm rings and cheap simple nuts on my turbo.
Not one has come loose! Those rings are worth its weight in gold!!!
AND you can remove the turbo without breaking studs!! (wiggle the bolds the 1st 1/4 turn)

From the title I was expecting Goatse.

Nord-locks are da bomb.

If there one problem with turboing my miata its been dealing with broken studs and nuts...you can only re-drill and re-tap a manifold so much:td:(just ask my butcherd stock greddy:crx:)....I even had to get a new flange welded to my ETD replacement....god it has been such a pain in my ass in the past. Don't easy out'em either,you break that shit off in the hole and your fucked, cause you can't get a good clean drill through for tapping.And its like uber carbon steel so dremal bits turn to dust...(I know cause it happend to me :vash: ).........

Ima saftey wire the lil basterds the next time it happens though, it just seems like the most effective way. And yes I have tried every type a nut/stud:gay: combo one can think of, and in time they all fail....but thats my unlucky experiance. which makes me jelous of all you ".. did it once and they stayed for years..." people:ugh2:...lucky basterds! :p

I can fix that.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6849/immodium0ux.jpg

The holes for the studs in the Begi manifolds go all the way through... so if I can find a way to keep turning them in, they'll come out on the inside of the mani... might be no need to back them out. I'm gonna soak them in PBBlaster for 24hrs and see where I stand.

No problems with studs on the DP side... stuck in there good.

I pulled 2 studs out of the block taking the mani off... no problem, they came out and went back in cleanly. I double-nut tightened ALL the block studs just for good measure.

I did find that 2 studs are broken off in the mani, so the PBBlaster should do the trick... maybe just take them to a machine shop with the right tools and get them out cleanly.

I ordered 18 of the FM locking nutz (4xMani, 5xDP) for 2 total sets. I also ordered the clutch bypass switch.

I broke the super small retaining clip that goes on the wastegate actuator arm... anybody know where I can get a small bag of those?

Now I've gotta remember where in town I bought those damn studs and get another bag. I'm gonna give those FM lockwashers a chance before I redrill for larger studs. Thanks all for the advice!

try an easy out!!!!! Works like a charm....

For the retaining clip, a simple e clip will do the trick. Easy to find at any local car dealer... You could also use a circlip...

I have this nifty little tool for installing studs, paid like $10 for it. I bought it from a kart shop (M8 mani studs are the same as what we use as wheel studs) for a couple of bucks, and I think he got it from either Harbor Freight or McMaster. His name is John, and he runs Fastech Racing in Monterey. Fuck the double-nut method; I just spin this tool in, tighten everything down, and then give it one tap in reverse and the tool backs right off. Easy peasy, and no fucking up threads with the double-nut method (my studs aren't long enough to hold two nuts).

Sam, a paper clip or simillar will work fine. I lost that little clip once and replaced it with a nail that I bent into a U. Ran with that for at least a year. Replaced it when I pulled the WG actuator off to paint it, since it was in my hand any way.

Here's another trick to go with the safety wire...

One of the issues I had over the years was the studs backing out of the cylinder head because the nuts were rusted to them. The best prevention I have found for this is "molybdenum lube".

I use it on the threads of anything connected to the exhaust manifold/turbo/downpipe/exhaust. Best example? I used the molybdenum lube on every exhaust system nut and stud of one of my Miatas when working on the exhaust. Sold the car to an individual who kept the car out in the weather and parked it on grass (the car was literally rotting in place). Eight years later I assisted in pulling the exhaust off of that car and the nuts threaded right off; no muss, no fuss, no broken studs or stripped threads. Good stuff and recommended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulfide

It's also a good engine assembly lube; give a bit more protection while awaiting oil pressure on first start.

^Thanks for the advice, I'll do some homework on that... but who are you? Do you work for Begi? I see you've got 27 posts in a year and a half but no profile info... what's your story.

I was on the phone with Corky a few days ago and he didn't say anything about the lube you mention. I didn't think there was anything that you could paint on the threads that would take the heat?

I dropped the manifold off at a local machine shop. They sat in PBBlaster overnight and should be a breeze for somebody with the right tools to take out. It didn't make sense to spend the cash on my own tools for this and then probably screw it up and cost me more in the long run. My washers have been shipped from FM.... just need to source studs, M8x1.25!

Stupid.... you could have ordered them from FM
A local dealer could help you (nissan/saab)

For gaskets(i know nobody drives with them) you have a single layer saab gasket that works perfect (t2)
My greddy setup (2 years ago) was not completely flat so i needed a gasket.
Kept blowing the nissan gasket out..4x

I don't work for BEGI, but, since Corky is a friend of mine, and for some reason he thinks I'm sorta smart for a University of Texas graduate (Corky's an Aggie and Aggies and Longhorns are mortal enemies in the wild), he asked me quite some time ago if I'd lurk on the boards and chime in whenever I could assist folks with issues on their turbo systems. I enjoy lurking here and following the banter back and forth through the threads. Each list has its own personality and this one tends to cater to the do-it-yourselfers.

I've known Corky for over a decade, drank more than a few margharitas with him, bought three turbo systems from him and allowed my Miata to be used for initial buildups of his products or for him to experiment on. This is why I have a custom, one-off turbo setup (that never saw production) on my car.

Low post count is due to the fact the US Army mobilized me back onto Active Duty for a couple of years and I've spent the past few months re-acclimatizing to my civilian job and the Miata world.

Ref the molybdenum lube, Corky has a full machine shop and hardware stock at his beck and call so minor irritants like broken bolt or studs don't faze him. Mere mortals like myself have to find ways to prevent stuff from breaking or stripping. Come to think of it, it's one of those things I never mentioned to him but now I think I should.

In any case, after multiple installations, I've learned a few tricks and lessons. I also tend to be a slow and conservative tuner; so far (knock on wood) I've had four forced induction systems on three engines with an approximate combined total of 234,000 miles with power ranges from 190 rwhp to the high side of 250rwhp with zero engine failures (I can't, however, say the same for differentials or transmissions!). I intend to keep it that way.

Best of luck on your setup.

FWIW,
Barry

^Awesome... hope to see you around some more. Steph and Corky don't get over here often enough anymore.

The studs were (of all freaking places) at the Autozone 2minutes from my house... so no more worries there. I also found a local place called Fastenal that appears to be a chain... they had (and are big fans of) the Nordlock washers, so I bought a bag of 20 for 9$. I paid freakin FM $1.50 a piece for 18 and then $10 for shipping:vash::vash::vash::vash::vash:FUCK!!!!

I'm going with the brass nuts that came with my studs for the manifold flange and using the oval-top nuts on the DP flange with Nordlocks all around... we'll see which one loosens first (hopefully, none of them ever loosen again!).

I'll have plenty of Nordlocks left over once my FM shipment gets here, so if anybody wants a set to try out, I'll send you a set of 9 for free... just PM me. I think I'll have 3 sets leftover, so first 3 get them. NOTE: If you've never had any loosening problems, don't bother. And it's certainly not worth the time or effort to completely remove your turbo just to install these washers if you don't have a constant loosening problem.

I'll keep y'all informed.

Ah Fastenal...my local store is only open until 7pm, so I haven't been able to get there after work/before they close. But good to know they have Nordlock! Hopefully I'll make ti there sometime, and I'll pick some up to have "in my back pocket," as they say.

sam you sure those are brass and not copper coated? brass is way weak for heat.

I don't know... I'll take a picture when I get home... they look like really dull gold.

I used lock washers coupled with thread locker and copper bolts, that shits not going anywhere.

this is the shit right here:

http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/gr...mcopnut-01.jpg

that's copper coated for love of turbo.

I can't believe Philip didn't rename this thread to: Studs and their Nuts- My shit is loose!

Bump for updates. My studs backed out of my BEGI manifold. I used Nordlocks with the nuts and studs that came with the manifold.

I'm thinking about replacing at least 3 out of 4 of the studs with bolts, since they're simpler and it looks like there's plenty of room for them.

-Mike

6k miles and the the ones on the DP are still tight as ever. Due to space constraints, I coudn't get them to fit on the manifold side... but I'm a believer in the Nordlocks. All my turbine housings will use them in the future.

back when I had the corrado, I kept a Makita, gasket, easy out, extra stud, and nut in the car at all times.

I'm quoting myself because I haven't touched my nuts in years.

Go to an Audi dealership. Ask them for their 8mm turbo nuts. Buy a shitload. Use them. Never touch them again. Be shocked when they don't rust in place when you pull your turbo.

The best part? They have a 12mm head instead of 13mm. You can get a smaller wrench on them more easily.

DO IT NOW.

NO, dont question me. DO IT.

any idea if they have 10mm studs there? I assume the standard begi studs are m10x1.0, and the ones on the atp site are 1.5

Those are beautiful nuts you have Matt. But the new BEGi stuff studs are 10mm.

his nuts are luxurious and reflect a golden aura, I'm sure they satisfy guys with smaller studs. I'm looking for similar nuts that can accommodate my larger stud. Its a bit more challenging to find nuts that work with my larger stud, but in the end the larger, more rigid stud will satisfy mating the two units and resist vibration, hopefully forever.

Creepy shit man!

But I have always been impressed with the Audi hardware, I want to get their head studs as well, made out some alloy, musanovic has some on his car, great stuff.

did I miss the part where bigger studs were a solution to a problem that I never had?

ATP has 10mm studs for those of you who think you need bigger for whatever reason.
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/me...egory_Code=FST

you maybe never had the problem, but others did. i'd rather deal with 10mm studs once then possibly have to deal with 8mm studs more than once. down time ftl.

BEGI decided larger studs were the fix for the problem. When I had my greddy kit I went bigger and to something easy to source. 3/8". I had difficulty sourcing (locally) good quality metric stuff, ironic being in Canada.

I use 8mm ARP or equivalent 10.9 grade hardware and have never had a problem. Going to a larger 10mm on pauls manifold caused some problems, mostly it's a pain to get a wrench in there to tighten the larger stud to the proper torque. I'm going back to 8mm on my next two manifolds and stick to good hardware.

I have a set of the fancy ATP copper nuts on order so I can check them out.

If all else fails,I will be using stage 8 fasteners.

has anyone ever had a problem with the larger stud's nuts banging into the bung-plug?

wait, larger studs are a fix for the loosening problem?

I thought they were a fix for broken stud problems

i was referring to my personal stud and nuts. Would you like pics?

In my opinion, loose leads to broken.

Does audi make M8 30mm-long studs, too?

-Mike

Fastenal Nordlocks... ouch!
 

So after reading this thread, I went to Fastenal and ordered a bunch of NordLock washers.

The guy said you had to purchase them by the bag, and they were $2.

That sounded great, so they ordered up a bag for me.

When I went to pick them up, it rang up at $50!

They are actually $2.50 per washer, or $5 bucks a stud. That's an expensive washer!!

I'm too cheap to pay $5 per stud.

any idea where we can get those copper nuts? ATP wants $15 to ship them, and I'm not paying that.

Hustler, I can swing up there sometime this week and grab a bunch if you wanna paypal me. I live 30 minutes from ATP.