Picking a way to control fuel on a 99... im CLUELESS.
 

So here i am trying to decide what im looking for in a way to control fuel once i turbo my 99. Im completely clueless on what i need to what i'd like to do. Cost is a big factor...esp. after seeing how much a Xede ($1600) and Hydra ($2000) costs.

What i want-

Easy tuning. Maybe something with a base tune in it al ready. Or perhaps something that only controls fuel under boost. Would like to ditch the MAS for a MAP sensor if possable. Ability to idle with larger injectors...like 450cc.
Not really looking for a timing controler... im all about staying away from pulling timing. Hell i'll build a crazy cold air box before i pull timing.Cooler intake temps> retarding timing.

Im perfectly happy with a piggyback.



What i don't want.

Something that is going to require a sh!t load of tuning just to get it to idle and cold start.Cost is a big factor, i wont want to double my cost for my whole kit on controling fuel. I really don't want to spend more than $800...maybe $1000 if it's REALLY worth it.


Here is what i have come up with for the various computer enhancements i know are on the market.

The Xede offers everything i want, but is way too expensive.

Hydra is simply to expensive and i do not need that much control.

AEM... do they have a plug and play with base maps for a 99 Miata?

MS. No PNP for the NB so i'd have to build one and then make base maps (can this be run as a piggy back?)

Link piggy back. Seems to be what im looking for... but i don't think it can support replacment of the injectors to larger ones... but it can control extra ones....which adds to the cost by having to install a 2nd fuel rail.



Discuss.

-Xede without injectors, $1k
-Have someone build you a parallel MS and retrofit a CAS, cheaper than $1k

Without an alarming amount of water injection, you will not be running stock timing. It doesn't work that way.

Why? Keeping intake temps as low as possible allows for less reduction in timing. I have a rather larger intercooler right in the front of the bumper.

I also forgot to mention that im planning im eventually going for ~250rwhp. But for now i have a Voodoo box and will be going with 305cc injectors for a bit.... probably good for about 210rwhp.

I speak from exp. with not pulling timing. I used to run 10psi on my 96 with fairly large intercooler setup, well insulated air filter and 16* timing across the board. And when it got cold, i even ran 87 octane gas and never had a hint of detonation. Why? Near ambiant intake temps.

You want timing control. Your old blower set up will have different requirements than your new turbo set up.

Check out the AEM FIC.

The Link piggyback sucks major ass. If you want to replace your motor, this is the way to go.

The Xede is expensive but it's competent. I would not evaluate engine management only by the cost of purchase, but by the money it saves you in either time or damaged motors. The Xede doesn't cost $1600 unless you get the injectors through BEGi. You can save a good amount of money there to be sure.

The MS wired in parallel is the way to go. Don't be afraid of tuning though, it's not that hard. Sure it's a little more work, but it's nothing daunting or impossible. Yes, you put in some time up front, but you have the most flexibility in the end as well.

i've heard about the AEM unit, but have not been able to find anything out about it.


The MS piggyback is sounding about the way to go because it leaves room to control anything i may want to do in the future. How hard would it be to build the maps to get it running or will it be relatively easy because it's only going to be a piggyback?

As for the Xede. I was unaware you could get it without injectors. Not bad considering i have a set of like new n/a RX-7 injectors. Can the Xede control injectors at idle?

the MS wouldn't be running piggyback; it would run parallel. meaning it would have full control of fuel and spark, and whatever else you ask for it to do. very similar to how the xede would work.

if you want a piggy, you need something along the lines of an emanage blue.

Im still learning Ben! lol. I kinda under the impression that 10psi is 10psi and that i blower and smaller turbo probably have similar cfm.

I really like my F/IC besides the o2 control (which im still working on but car runs ok, just 10:1 part throttle boost. gah!).

Other than that, it's excellent for $400. Took me about 10 seconds of tuning to get a solid idle out of my 460's

If it's not i nfull control.. it's piggyback to me lol. Might it then be possible to pass OBD-II ?? That sounds nice.

In the case between Xede and MS... i'd still be up in the air because while the Xede might cost more, there will be way less dyno time. Argh, too many decisions.

Also, can the Xede control any injectors? (as in the RX-7 injectors)

Uhh... you physically CUT the wires from the stock PCM for injectors and ignition control... MS has FULL control of fuel and spark the way they're talking about wiring it up.


Don't waste your time and money on that other junk, just go MS. Btw, heat generation between 10psi on a turbocharger and 10psi on an Eaton blower are Two TOTALLY different things. Roots blower == instant on.

why is an emanage blue and autotune not a viable option for a 99+

Fuel pressure not high enough for max size injectors that Blue can control well.

Maybe could go with a fifth injector.

I Just Purchased a Greddy EMU. I liked it over the AEM unit because it has the ablity to advance and retard timing. I believe the AEM F/IC does not.

other than that they are pretty close in cost and features.

On a side note i plan on going MS some day.

I'm currently running MS on my '99. A full MS system including a used 94-97 CAS will cost you around $500 with all the bells and whistles. You'll have full control of fuel and ignition, you can use the stock knock sensor, EBC, get rid of the MAF, run large injectors. I'm running 550s but i think i'm going to go to 460s to improve my idle conditions. Pretty much everything you want to do can be accomplished with megasquirt wired in parallel.

OK, well it seems that both the link and MSparallel can work.

Which one will still allow me to pull OBD-II codes/pass emissions?
Will either one allow me to replace my MAF with a MAP sensor?

I've come across deals on both systems... an my lack of knowlege is keeping me from making a solid decision.

Mark-As for the comment about "if you want to buy a new motor, get a link". Please by all means feel free to back this statement up with some kinda facts.... not something based on a specific experience or personal preference. I don't want to pass up something that could be useful / get something that does not work because i didn't know the pros and cons to it.

Something tells me that the MS would be good because their hq is right down the road lol. Either one i go with, DIY is doing the dyno tuning.

i really woukld like to see more F/IC information as well. To me it seems as the way to go if you PnP it.

BTW, As Ben knows.... i have a old BRPerformance Plug-n-Play harness, which would make wiring in anything pretty easy. In case any of you don't know what this is, the stock harness plugs into a little box and the box has a output harness that plugs into the stock ECU and on the sides of the box there are taps for injectors, CAS, O2, tach signal, power, ground MAS and air temp.

I know there could be some use for this when it comes to wiring in some kinda computer controller. I wonder, if i were to go with the MSParallel, i could plug the MS into the needed pins on the side of the PnP box and simply cut the wires on the output harness. This way i'd avoid cutting the OEM harness.
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Well that's interesting.
The MSparallel will allow you to maintain OBDII.
Truthfully if you can handle the AEM FIC interface it appears to be a great option. You will be able to use the stock Crank and Cam sensors and control large injectors while maintaining sequential injection. The only downside to going with the FIC is the lack of knock, launch, EBC, and a few things like that.
The FIC can be had for around 300-350 depending on who you talk to. I've been seeing some people getting them Uber cheap, but i think they have dealer connections.

I don't have a tally on how many motors have blown up with the Link piggyback, Call FM and they'll tell you everything is fine.

If you want to discount my personal experience (because I didn't blow my motor with the link, but witnessed others) that's fine. The problem with the Link piggyback is that it suffers from the ability to accurately control timing. No I don't have datalogs of this, well, because it doesn't datalog.

I do know what causes detonation though and the rods that I saw bent to hell and back were not the result of any differences in the forging or hardness of the rods (FM sent out rods for testing to confirm this after a number of motors blew up at 12 PSI.) and reduced the maximum recommended boost to 9 PSI on NB's. Why because of spark scatter... Spark scatter wasn't sufficient enough to blow the motors at 9 PSI but it was at 12 PSI. I ran 18 PSI without a problem, but I was running 100 octane racing gas in my car, where the spark scatter didn't matter because I had sufficient octane.

You know what, given the fact that all I have is personal experience and a large number of reported blown motors from the forums. All anecdotal evidence of the timing problem... I think you should go for it!

That's funny. This is an area where I don't lack knowledge. Then again, what do I know... It's not like I have an engineering degree, just a 300 RWHP Miata that runs on pump gas.

Mark

Well, I didn't pay much more than that for my MS to run in parallel in my 96 with knock, launch control, EBC, etc. I'm not totally convinced that the AEM FIC can compete with the MS. I did seriously look into it when I was deciding on my EMS setup and discarded it because there was not enough real life feedback to be found (lol, I was the second guy to register as a FIC forum member!).

What finally convinced me to go with Chad's MS was the fact that he was running his in parallel without issues. Plus, I've been hassling him via pm and email at every corner of my project:bowdown:

Woah there Killer. I didn't mean to in anyway, discredit what you factually do know about them. I just didn't want the "oh my friend didn't like it so it's crap" or "it didn't do what i wanted it to do" kinda response. But rather a "i've seen x,y and z happen directly because of theis system" was what i was looking for. Just coming out and saying that it blows motors leaves much to the imagination on why someone would say something like i did in return.
And what i meant by "a specific experience" was just that, A specific experience that left a bad impression.... not multiple cases of the Link failing to do its job.

I was hoping for actual accounts of what makes it bad. That's all, sorry for the mis-use of words :)

So you're saying that the Link is only good for 9psi or so? Yeesh.

BTW Mark, what are you using for management? Is your block stock? I ask because i wouldn't mind seeing those numbers from mine down the road.

Xede is pnp/can pass OBD2 etc however it doesn't have granular pulswidth control so idle is a bit rough but liveable (I run 550s and idle pretty well). They (Bell) can do MAP sensor but havn't developed this to a full option for cuts yet (I've been nagging). Overall it works pretty well. All that being said I'm still thinking about going MS for more control (idle, cold start etc would be nice to have). Injectors - I don't recall the specifics but I think it does only one or the other of high or low impediance - Bell can clarify this.

Just a fyi: I've also seen Xede units go for ~600-800 slightly used (it's easy to flash and load maps). Although I would still consider the MS route.

BTW: Your gonna have to pull timing for anything over 6psi, the tuning side of things really isn't that hard I'm sure you'll get a feel for it after playing with it a bit. GL man.

It's not just pulling a bit as MAP increases, it's also adding it in down low to make the car more snappy out of boost and in low boost.

Mike, no offense man, but you're kind of all over the place with this. Which do you want, a piggy that just adds fuel with MAP over atmo, or do you want a standalone/parallel that gives you full control? They piggy is going to be easier to work with, but will be ultimately limiting. The standalone is going to be more work, but will have more potential, and safety potential. You're going to need to take an honest assesment of your goals and your capabilities.

If you go standalone, I say throw OBDII out the window, and go back to the stock ecu and injectors once per year. Just tie your WG open.

Well, the idea of full standalone is kinda intimidating....getting it tuned and all. But i guess if i want the correct and safe power it's the way to go. I also forget that i have the BRP harness which would make switching between a standalone and stock for emissions pass a pretty easy deal. Im also under the impression that if i were to go with a full MS, getting a base map and getting it tuned is going to cost a fortune :(

What i need to do if completely forget about what i used to have and how simple/effective it was lol.

Actually, I only saw one eat itself on the dyno, it bent the rod like freaking pretzel at 10 PSI and 220 RWHP on my dyno. Really nice. Wasn't even flogging it hardly, just a nice clean pull, let off the gas and shebang, bent rod. When I pulled the motor apart I was pretty pissed because it wasn't multiple detonation events because the piston had no sign of detonation at all, which means it was one nasty detonation that took out that rod but didn't harm the piston.

No, I am saying that you are risking your motor unless you are running high octane fuel. I ran 12-18 PSI all the time, but I didn't trust the damn thing so I was running 100 octane gas. I would just fill up at willow springs, instead of diamond shamrock. Shell 100 Octane seemed to be find regardless of how much timing the car had in it. It just refused to detonate on that stuff. So personally, my experience with the Link piggy was a successful one... but I could make more power with a standalone wired in parallel by far and I have been running standalone ECUs in parallel on 99+ Miata's as long as anybody I know of.

TEC-IIIR, but it was just a basic street tune when I dyno'd the car at 300 RWHP.

Not even close.

Rods, Pistons, Billet oil pump, dual valve springs, shim under buckets, etc. Still have the stock cams though and am running 9:1 compression.

I would highly recommend forged pistons and rods for any 300 RWHP miata.

Mark

Ahhh ok. I cannot say that i'd be willing to hike 20 miles up the interstates to get 100oct. on every fill up for a daily driver. I know we have standard 93 oct. at the pump, don't know if that'd be good enough. So it looks like the Link will not work for what im going to need from it in the long run. Once again, MS seems to be the victor.

Meh, it's looking like im going to run the voodoo box with some 305cc injectors when i get the turbo put on and run 9-10psi for awhile until i can get a MS in and tuned. Then it'll be the fun of hooking up the stock ECU and injectors every year for emissions.

Will the stock ECU idle the 305s worth a darn? I never messed with increasing injector size on the stock '99 ecu. Went from voodoo box to MS.

i've heard it can hold a idle with 305's. I'll give it a shot. I want to find out the rating on the RDX injectors. If the 305's are too big, i'll find something a little smaller like the 295cc 3SGE Toyota or if worse comes to worse, i'll give a slight bump with some 265cc....15cc larger than what i have now. I'm feeling pretty sure that the 305's will work though.

I think they will work fine.

I don't know if you are gonna be able to run 9-10 PSI on a T3/T04E with 305's, just an opinion. It's gonna REAL REAL tight.

Assuming 60 PSI rail pressure, 305 injectors, a BFSC of .50 and max duty cycle of .9, you might have enough fuel. My T3/T4 made 250+ RWHP at 10 PSI which is over 275 Crank HP. 305's with the above specs are good for 275 Crank HP, that doesn't leave much room for error. Then again, I might be wrong... but it's gonna be close either way.

Mark

Thanks for clairfying that up. Of coarse i will bring the boost up slowly while tuning. Starting with 6-7psi and seeing what is where. Also, i have a Walbuzz 255 , and if needed, can put in a FPR. I just did a little injector research, too. Seems the N/A 7MGE injectors are actually 315cc and the 5SFE from the late model Camry/Solara 4cy are 295cc and the 3SGE are also 315cc. So the 315's might still hold a idle (10cc's more?) and allow me to make 10 psi.

[ur]http://www.toysport.com/webpages/Techinfo/References/injectors.htm[/url]

Also, the turbo is a .46 trim/.60 compressor and 63 a/r on the exhaust... so it's not really that big.





Starting to sound like too many band-aids to get things running. I need to shut up, get the turbo in , get the 305's and just run it safe until i can get a standalone lololol.