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Old 12-15-2007, 02:43 PM   #1
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Default Picking a way to control fuel on a 99... im CLUELESS.

So here i am trying to decide what im looking for in a way to control fuel once i turbo my 99. Im completely clueless on what i need to what i'd like to do. Cost is a big factor...esp. after seeing how much a Xede ($1600) and Hydra ($2000) costs.

What i want-

Easy tuning. Maybe something with a base tune in it al ready. Or perhaps something that only controls fuel under boost. Would like to ditch the MAS for a MAP sensor if possable. Ability to idle with larger injectors...like 450cc.
Not really looking for a timing controler... im all about staying away from pulling timing. Hell i'll build a crazy cold air box before i pull timing.Cooler intake temps> retarding timing.

Im perfectly happy with a piggyback.



What i don't want.

Something that is going to require a **** load of tuning just to get it to idle and cold start.Cost is a big factor, i wont want to double my cost for my whole kit on controling fuel. I really don't want to spend more than $800...maybe $1000 if it's REALLY worth it.


Here is what i have come up with for the various computer enhancements i know are on the market.

The Xede offers everything i want, but is way too expensive.

Hydra is simply to expensive and i do not need that much control.

AEM... do they have a plug and play with base maps for a 99 Miata?

MS. No PNP for the NB so i'd have to build one and then make base maps (can this be run as a piggy back?)

Link piggy back. Seems to be what im looking for... but i don't think it can support replacment of the injectors to larger ones... but it can control extra ones....which adds to the cost by having to install a 2nd fuel rail.



Discuss.
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Old 12-15-2007, 02:55 PM   #2
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-Xede without injectors, $1k
-Have someone build you a parallel MS and retrofit a CAS, cheaper than $1k

Without an alarming amount of water injection, you will not be running stock timing. It doesn't work that way.
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:05 PM   #3
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Why? Keeping intake temps as low as possible allows for less reduction in timing. I have a rather larger intercooler right in the front of the bumper.

I also forgot to mention that im planning im eventually going for ~250rwhp. But for now i have a Voodoo box and will be going with 305cc injectors for a bit.... probably good for about 210rwhp.

I speak from exp. with not pulling timing. I used to run 10psi on my 96 with fairly large intercooler setup, well insulated air filter and 16* timing across the board. And when it got cold, i even ran 87 octane gas and never had a hint of detonation. Why? Near ambiant intake temps.
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:09 PM   #4
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You want timing control. Your old blower set up will have different requirements than your new turbo set up.

Check out the AEM FIC.
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DropTopDrifter View Post
So here i am trying to decide what im looking for in a way to control fuel once i turbo my 99. Im completely clueless on what i need to what i'd like to do. Cost is a big factor...esp. after seeing how much a Xede ($1600) and Hydra ($2000) costs.


Something that is going to require a **** load of tuning just to get it to idle and cold start.Cost is a big factor, i wont want to double my cost for my whole kit on controling fuel. I really don't want to spend more than $800...maybe $1000 if it's REALLY worth it.

MS. No PNP for the NB so i'd have to build one and then make base maps (can this be run as a piggy back?)

Link piggy back. Seems to be what im looking for... but i don't think it can support replacment of the injectors to larger ones... but it can control extra ones....which adds to the cost by having to install a 2nd fuel rail.



Discuss.

The Link piggyback sucks major ***. If you want to replace your motor, this is the way to go.

The Xede is expensive but it's competent. I would not evaluate engine management only by the cost of purchase, but by the money it saves you in either time or damaged motors. The Xede doesn't cost $1600 unless you get the injectors through BEGi. You can save a good amount of money there to be sure.

The MS wired in parallel is the way to go. Don't be afraid of tuning though, it's not that hard. Sure it's a little more work, but it's nothing daunting or impossible. Yes, you put in some time up front, but you have the most flexibility in the end as well.
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:16 PM   #6
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i've heard about the AEM unit, but have not been able to find anything out about it.


The MS piggyback is sounding about the way to go because it leaves room to control anything i may want to do in the future. How hard would it be to build the maps to get it running or will it be relatively easy because it's only going to be a piggyback?

As for the Xede. I was unaware you could get it without injectors. Not bad considering i have a set of like new n/a RX-7 injectors. Can the Xede control injectors at idle?
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:18 PM   #7
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the MS wouldn't be running piggyback; it would run parallel. meaning it would have full control of fuel and spark, and whatever else you ask for it to do. very similar to how the xede would work.

if you want a piggy, you need something along the lines of an emanage blue.
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
You want timing control. Your old blower set up will have different requirements than your new turbo set up.

Check out the AEM FIC.
Im still learning Ben! lol. I kinda under the impression that 10psi is 10psi and that i blower and smaller turbo probably have similar cfm.
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:20 PM   #9
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I really like my F/IC besides the o2 control (which im still working on but car runs ok, just 10:1 part throttle boost. gah!).

Other than that, it's excellent for $400. Took me about 10 seconds of tuning to get a solid idle out of my 460's
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
the MS wouldn't be running piggyback; it would run parallel. meaning it would have full control of fuel and spark, and whatever else you ask for it to do. very similar to how the xede would work.
If it's not i nfull control.. it's piggyback to me lol. Might it then be possible to pass OBD-II ?? That sounds nice.

In the case between Xede and MS... i'd still be up in the air because while the Xede might cost more, there will be way less dyno time. Argh, too many decisions.
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:35 PM   #11
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Also, can the Xede control any injectors? (as in the RX-7 injectors)
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DropTopDrifter View Post
If it's not i nfull control.. it's piggyback to me lol. Might it then be possible to pass OBD-II ?? That sounds nice.

In the case between Xede and MS... i'd still be up in the air because while the Xede might cost more, there will be way less dyno time. Argh, too many decisions.

Uhh... you physically CUT the wires from the stock PCM for injectors and ignition control... MS has FULL control of fuel and spark the way they're talking about wiring it up.


Don't waste your time and money on that other junk, just go MS. Btw, heat generation between 10psi on a turbocharger and 10psi on an Eaton blower are Two TOTALLY different things. Roots blower == instant on.
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Old 12-15-2007, 04:52 PM   #13
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why is an emanage blue and autotune not a viable option for a 99+
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Old 12-15-2007, 06:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tronik View Post
why is an emanage blue and autotune not a viable option for a 99+
Fuel pressure not high enough for max size injectors that Blue can control well.

Maybe could go with a fifth injector.
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Old 12-15-2007, 06:54 PM   #15
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I Just Purchased a Greddy EMU. I liked it over the AEM unit because it has the ablity to advance and retard timing. I believe the AEM F/IC does not.

other than that they are pretty close in cost and features.

On a side note i plan on going MS some day.
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Old 12-15-2007, 08:01 PM   #16
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I'm currently running MS on my '99. A full MS system including a used 94-97 CAS will cost you around $500 with all the bells and whistles. You'll have full control of fuel and ignition, you can use the stock knock sensor, EBC, get rid of the MAF, run large injectors. I'm running 550s but i think i'm going to go to 460s to improve my idle conditions. Pretty much everything you want to do can be accomplished with megasquirt wired in parallel.
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Old 12-16-2007, 12:04 PM   #17
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OK, well it seems that both the link and MSparallel can work.

Which one will still allow me to pull OBD-II codes/pass emissions?
Will either one allow me to replace my MAF with a MAP sensor?

I've come across deals on both systems... an my lack of knowlege is keeping me from making a solid decision.

Mark-As for the comment about "if you want to buy a new motor, get a link". Please by all means feel free to back this statement up with some kinda facts.... not something based on a specific experience or personal preference. I don't want to pass up something that could be useful / get something that does not work because i didn't know the pros and cons to it.

Something tells me that the MS would be good because their hq is right down the road lol. Either one i go with, DIY is doing the dyno tuning.
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Old 12-16-2007, 12:06 PM   #18
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i really woukld like to see more F/IC information as well. To me it seems as the way to go if you PnP it.
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Old 12-16-2007, 12:34 PM   #19
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BTW, As Ben knows.... i have a old BRPerformance Plug-n-Play harness, which would make wiring in anything pretty easy. In case any of you don't know what this is, the stock harness plugs into a little box and the box has a output harness that plugs into the stock ECU and on the sides of the box there are taps for injectors, CAS, O2, tach signal, power, ground MAS and air temp.

I know there could be some use for this when it comes to wiring in some kinda computer controller. I wonder, if i were to go with the MSParallel, i could plug the MS into the needed pins on the side of the PnP box and simply cut the wires on the output harness. This way i'd avoid cutting the OEM harness.


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Old 12-16-2007, 12:44 PM   #20
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Well that's interesting.
The MSparallel will allow you to maintain OBDII.
Truthfully if you can handle the AEM FIC interface it appears to be a great option. You will be able to use the stock Crank and Cam sensors and control large injectors while maintaining sequential injection. The only downside to going with the FIC is the lack of knock, launch, EBC, and a few things like that.
The FIC can be had for around 300-350 depending on who you talk to. I've been seeing some people getting them Uber cheap, but i think they have dealer connections.
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