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Old 12-15-2015, 03:03 PM   #1
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Question Planning stages - Turbo build

I have been crawling all over this site, m.net and using google and the like, I have an idea of what I would like to build but I could use some help and information.

I have a '93 in my carport that I would like to turbo. It currently has the stock 1.6.
My thoughts and plans are all over the place so I was hoping the more experienced can help out.
I would like to hit approx 200whp.
I would also like to maintain PS and A/C.
I would also like to not blow a huge sum of cash however I do not want to buy something I will have to replace in a relatively small amount of time. As time moves on and I am more familiar with the process and workings I have little issue in upgrading to better quality/higher performance parts.
So my questions are as follows.
1) Would you suggest purchasing a secondhand set up or a new kit whether it be an ebay kit or from Shuiend? ( again I am looking to keep stock a/c and p/s )
2)From what I have read an ECM is mandatory, would it be best to set this up on the stock 1.6 before any modifications are made?
3)If for whatever reason the 1.6 doesn't live very long the idea is to move to a 1.8, and again , would it be best to start the ECM process all over with an NA motor before adding FI?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 12-15-2015, 03:05 PM   #2
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Hi.

What is your budget?
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Old 12-15-2015, 03:16 PM   #3
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Hi.

What is your budget?
I would like to keep the initial cost to $2k or less so if/when I mess up or mess something up I am not out too much $ and can replace items easily.
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Old 12-15-2015, 03:33 PM   #4
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Having taken a similar route myself, I would recommend getting your fueling (Hint: MS) squared away before bolting anything else on. Playing with Megasquirt and learning the ropes takes time. You can figure out the rest of your plan (1.8, type of kit, etc) while learning the ways of the squirt.

I would continue "crawling all over this site." The answers you want are probably already here.
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Old 12-15-2015, 03:34 PM   #5
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Quote:
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I would like to keep the initial cost to $2k or less so if/when I mess up or mess something up I am not out too much $ and can replace items easily.
Double your budget and you will be in the right ballpark on price. You don't have the knowledge to do it cheaper. Follow these steps to succeed at turboing your car.

1. MS3 and a wideband O2 sensor. Learn to tune on the stock motor. Budget $1000 for the MS3 and wideband.
2. Bigger injectors. Retune fuel. $300 for Flow Force Injectors.
3. FM1 clutch and a 1.8 flywheel. $400 for FM1 clutch and then a $50 1.8 flywheel.
4. 1.8 rear end swap. $500-1000 depending on ratio's and if it has a torsen.
5. Install turbo setup. $2k-4k or so hardware wise.
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Old 12-15-2015, 04:47 PM   #6
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It can be done for cheap and within your budget, but if you are still asking these questions, it won't happen for under $2k. Heck, the lemon's team that built the franken miata did it for $95 and only replaced the motor after 100ish track hours due to oil consumption. They had three turbo engineers on the team and access to a dyno and all the instrumentation they could need though.

Budget closer to $4k to do it right, and do it in the steps that were said above.
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:05 PM   #7
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Lars pretty much hit it on the head.
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:13 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Double your budget and you will be in the right ballpark on price. You don't have the knowledge to do it cheaper. Follow these steps to succeed at turboing your car.

1. MS3 and a wideband O2 sensor. Learn to tune on the stock motor. Budget $1000 for the MS3 and wideband.
2. Bigger injectors. Retune fuel. $300 for Flow Force Injectors.
3. FM1 clutch and a 1.8 flywheel. $400 for FM1 clutch and then a $50 1.8 flywheel.
4. 1.8 rear end swap. $500-1000 depending on ratio's and if it has a torsen.
5. Install turbo setup. $2k-4k or so hardware wise.
Thanks for taking the time to answer.

1) Thats good information. Thank you.
2) I did neglect to take into acct injectors but was hoping for rx7/8 yellow tops used or otherwise to minimize the expense there but maintaining the flexibility. Also not explored fully yet is the capability of the stock coil setup to accommodate my goal.
3/4) I have already taken into account clutch and rear end replacements, that is not part of this budget

5) This is part of my main question. recently setups have come across our craigslist and through other channels for 1k-1500. Your kit is 1500 then I'd need to figure in an intercooler..
*edit* also , how to know if any kit I buy is going to clea p/s and a/c?
P.s. who is Lars?
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:24 PM   #9
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Lars is shuiend.

Budget more than that for an MS3. Isn't it more like $1200 all said and done?

MSBasic: $1050 from TSE
LC-2: $150ish
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:47 PM   #10
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Lars is shuiend.

Budget more than that for an MS3. Isn't it more like $1200 all said and done?

MSBasic: $1050 from TSE
LC-2: $150ish
TSE being Trackspeed Eng? Aidandj, I am on page 23 of your build thread, good stuff. My call was going to be made to DIY as they are a little closer but considering your knowledge is there a reason not too? Do you find them more expensive or less knowledgeable than TSE?
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:51 PM   #11
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Are you trying to build something yourself? Or buy something that is plug and play.

The cheapest plug and play MS3 is either brains MS3/MS3x (see for sale section) or MSLabs MS3Basic.
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Old 12-15-2015, 07:09 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
Are you trying to build something yourself? Or buy something that is plug and play.

The cheapest plug and play MS3 is either brains MS3/MS3x (see for sale section) or MSLabs MS3Basic.
I didn't want to start from scratch, I was hoping for PnP at least in the beginning to learn how it all works.

But that is why I am here asking questions.. I do have soldering experience and can follow basic directions. Would I be better served going for a build it yourself?
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Old 12-15-2015, 07:18 PM   #13
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Building an MS3 is not hard. Fixing everything you built incorrectly is the hard part.

Do you want pain and suffering, followed by a warm feeling of success.

It depends on how much time you want to devote, and your ability to troubleshoot and figure things out.
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:39 PM   #14
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I really appreciate your input on this guys. It's helped a lot. Open my eyes to a few more things. I realize its tough dealing with noob questions and theory crafters on a regular basis. I do see where I have shorted my budget a little and considering this will likely take me a year or more to complete ( e-street build first on another car. Then titling both cars as they are salvage titles.) , I should be able to grow that over time.
I am going to get the MS first and do the shake down and initial tuning on the current 1.6 then grow the injectors and Coils. And since Shuiend's fits the bill as far as cost and fit for a/c and p/s and in the same basic range as the used units I've found locally and it's NEW.

It has been suggested I go with a 1.8 instead of even messing with the 1.6 But I feel starting with the 1.6 will provide me with a baseline, a running car as is. However if the compression is off or its making funny noises.. then I will source a 1.8 rather than replace the 1.6 with one of the others I have in stock.

Thanks again.
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:41 PM   #15
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1.6 and 1.8 turbo manifolds do not interchange. Megasquirt will require some rewiring.

Why put more effort into a 1.6
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:59 PM   #16
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benefit to staying with a 1.6L is that entire motors can be bought for just a few hundred dollars. But any amount of work and material cost that goes into building a 1.6L will be the same aside from the initial investment of a 1.8 bare block/crank and head.

If you plan on a full rebuild, don't buy a functioning motor. Just get the shells and stuff it with new parts.
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Old 12-16-2015, 08:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutt View Post
I would like to keep the initial cost to $2k or less so if/when I mess up or mess something up I am not out too much $ and can replace items easily.
Take it from someone who is in the process of putting a build together: assume to have spent 1.5 to 2 times your budget when things are said and done.

Parts will break. Things will not fit. As a relative amateur to turbocharged miatas, you will invariably overlook things.

Most of all, do as much research as possible and don't be in a rush. Buy the best components you can afford and do it right the first time.
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:37 PM   #18
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I'll be honest this discussion almost has me convinced on ditching this chasis and coming up with something that already has a 1.8.
I started pricing 1.8's and for 700 you get nothing with it. But for 1500 I can get a running driving salvage titled 01.
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Old 12-17-2015, 02:06 AM   #19
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You're starting to get it. Mine has been a long journey because 1.6 car and trying to cheap my way into it. Just about everything on my car has been changed out it seems at least once.Engine,trans,rear,brakes,etc. Make a realistic set of goals and realize even then, they are going to change the more you learn. Starting with an nb sounds like a good idea to me now{lol}.
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Old 12-17-2015, 09:13 AM   #20
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I am in the $2k turbo range with my 1.6L. It can be done but you need time, and lots of it. You have to buy used and get it quick. For instance I got my DIYPNP and a few sensors for $400 locally, then on here Curly let his ARTech turbo kit go for $950 with a T25 and all the fittings. Also VTPS for ~$40. LC-2 last cyber Monday (~$130) and then the local Pull-a-Part for some 460cc RX8 injectors $40, cleaned/flowmatched ~$100. Front mount sourced locally for cheap and free IC pipe from friends. Bosch BPV from a SAAB and some ebay 4-ply couplers ~$100. I also did a coolant reroute ~$135. I still have to get my IC pipes welded up, so I may be over that $2k budget depending on fitment afterwards.

All of this has taken me over a year and half to accumulate. I think the biggest thing to consider is getting Megasquirt setup and running first. Learn how to data log, how to tune, look for any existing issues, sensor noise. Start running speed density, VTPS, and get VEAL going. There are gains on the stock motor for sure. I noticed a nice midrange torque gain after I got the MS setup and running on a 93 octane tune.

I've got some videos of my process, but there are other great resources on Youtube, like The Car Passion Channel and Toms Turbo Garage. Bad Obsession Motorsports if you have that British engineering mentality and tend to be a masochist.

https://www.youtube.com/user/90civichb
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