Took the Chinacharger T3 turbo plunge! (now with logs)
 

I've been making some small changes to my setup: specifically a smaller intercooler and now a smaller turbo. My goal is gaining a crap ton extra low-end torque without a major trade off up top. I still have a 220-230rwhp goal.

I wanted to simply swap on a 50 trim compressor wheel on my T3 in place of my S60 wheel, I figured that would do the ticket. I ended up with an eBay turbo after weighing a few pros and cons.

So far I'm pleasantly surprised with it. I was really afraid how the different the turbine would be since the specs they gave me were slightly different than a standard turbine from Garrett. As far as I can determine, the wheels are the same but for extended tips on the inducer. And from what I can assume, that would only be a good thing. The spacing/size/shape/profile of the exducer fins are identical.

Same with the compressor wheel. It was spec'd as a 50 trim, but the measurements of the inducer were just off. The lengths of the fins are the same but the design is a little different. It's hard to explain, but the inner small fin is a different angle and spacing.

I'm not sure how this turbo will react in the real world, but I'm thinking it will spool faster like I want and still support my power goal.


now for the pics:

Out of the Box:
http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0003.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0004.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0005.JPG


Had the wastegate ported at BEGi:
http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0006.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0007.JPG



comparing the turbines:

http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0010.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0011.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0012.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0013.JPG



Comparing the compressor wheels:
http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0014.JPG


http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0015.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0017.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0016.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0020.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0019.JPG



Ready to install:
http://boostedmiata.com/turbo/ebay/DSC_0021.JPG

Cool...ready to hear how it turns out.

I have coilovers to install on Saturday, if I have time I'll do it then.

Oh no you didn't!

What is the world coming to!

So braineack doesn't have a Garrett turbo. BLASPHEMY!

That oil drain is a genuine Garrett part! I'm also installing a smaller tubo...is that even legal?

lol!

Let us know which turbo you bought exactly! I'm thinking of ditching my gt2259 plans

I bought this one:

T3 TURBO CHARGER INTERNAL 8PSI WASTEGATE .48AR TURBINE:eBay Motors (item 160344420666 end time Jul-24-09 18:06:18 PDT)

Seller did something a little shady. I sent an offer of $155 but we agreed at $175. He sent a Paypal Payment Request to avoid eBay fees. I took a risk and went for it, luckily he pulled through. I talked to him on the phone and took a chance on love.

Seller: jp_drift_showoff

T3 TURBO CHARGER INTERNAL 8PSI WASTEGATE .48AR TURBINE

I made sure the auction had the compressor and turbine specs, otherwise I would have never considered it.

I like your style. You build something with a set torque goal and you're happy with it.
My goal was originally to have 1 RWHP per 10 lbs. Since my car weighs 2350, this means I need 235 rwhp. This can be done with my SR20 T25, and then I'm done. I have too many projects to wrench on instead of constantly messing with the Miata. You have to draw the line somewhere...Or do you?

I figure if I only have a 220-230rwhp goal, I've been more than happy with the power for years now. Why have a turbo that's good for 300-320rwhp. I'll benefit from faster spool and more peak torque...with the same peak HP...why not?

Brain, are you selling your T3S60?

probably not.

I wish I was satisfied with reasonable power goals :( :(

right, it would be so nice if I were happy with what I have.
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I was thinking about a redux of my setup, but SO said no building motors in the garage this year.

Topic came about due to a $400 LS1 on CL in need of a rebuild. She not only said I didn't have time for that project, but that I couldn't build a 1.8L either. She's right...but I still told her that her boobs felt just like her sister's last night.


$175 is hella cheap for a turbo. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around all this. Some of ya'lls setups will get to the point where a replacement turbo is less than 10% the total cost of your setup, whereas replacing mine would be over 30% of what I've got into.

This could make it pretty easy to swap trims and find what you really like, which I guess is basically what Scott did.


I'd love to have more power, but without a built motor the 220-230whp limit with best spool characteristics just makes sense.

Thanks for the info Brainy,

does the turbo seem solid out of the box? Any cleaning/etc that I'd need to do before tossing it on?

Out of the box, yeah. I had it shipped directly to BEGi so they could port it, so I cant say if they cleaned it a bit. But I didn't clean anything before I snapped those shots and everything was shavings free. There was a thin coat of oil/grease on the flanges which was a nice touch. As far as I can tell it's going to be a good unit.

This is so exciting. If reports of reliability/quality keep rolling in from experienced/knowledgeable folks like yourself that tested them, then prices/cost for turbos will plummet. More people will be able to afford to turbo their miata's. Many will be able to afford to upgrade to bigger/better units. Oh boy I'm getting all giddy just thinking about it:D

I just wish I knew how that turbine was really going to react. As far as my feeble brain can determine it should be positive.

The exducer bore and shape/spacing is all identical. This is where the backpressure comes into play, speeding up the wheel and where it can choke out up top. People will actually "clip" the trailing edges off to promote flow through the turbine at the expensive of spool.

Typically when you go to a Stage II or Stage III wheel not only does the inducer/exducer's diameter increase proportionately, but the spacing between fins increases. This reducing the backpressure as the exhaust gasses can more easily flow through at high rpms, again at the cost of spool.

Since I have extended leading edges I can see where it wouldn't really matter for spool, the exducer still produces the same restriction and flow. But I can maybe see it being better for top-end as there's more surface to push against when there flow increases.

I could be wrong, but that's what I'm thinking. It's already a larger turbine than all you GT25 and GT28 folks and I'm on a stock 1.6L motor.


But the compressor wheel has a 6mm smaller inducer, which will move my efficiency curve and should spin faster. So if the turbine remains a constant I should end up with the turbo I actually wanted.

I could have simply slapped the compressor wheel on my current turbo, as you can see i have one, but I decided to get a brand new unit a try. My turbo is was used when I got it 5 years ago, it's composed of many different turbos's parts, been rebuilt a few times, the turbine wheel isn't perfectly true, and I think it may be the root of some oil burning I'm still dealing with. So I figured, why not.

Is it in yet?
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... thats what she said?

*subscribe*

I guess we can let that slide.

You're making the car more auto-x friendly it seems?

I'm just trying to get the full potential of out a stock motor <250rwhp setup. If I can still make 230rwhp, as I'm at now, why sacrifice the low-end I know I can gain?

the auto-x benefit would be nice, as well as the overall experience. I only HDPE ever once in a blue moon, so it wouldn't really hurt me there. But, If I didn't have a stock motor and made it to the track more, I probably wouldn't bother.

You should chat with Emilio. I know he had a water/air IC for a bit with the idea of increasing throttle response.

I'd like to do a real datalog and figure out how much that matters. Put some sensitive pressure sensors along the intake tract and find out what really does what.

I'm not THAT considered that I'd go with a a/w IC. my new tube and fin already shaved off close to 400rpm from my spool.

Haha- I know exactly like you mean. Your wife's boobs do feel exactly like her sister's.

You still want that T3 compressor I Have?

What I've got IIRC is a 40 trim.. Pretty tiny...

I gotta go back out and button it up later today:

http://www.boostedmiata.com/turbo/eb...l/CIMG1948.jpg

Why are there two vacuum ports on the wastegate can?

to make use of pressure differentials.

Just pausing to notice that was Brain's 20,000th post.


Wow.

Nice! It looks good. Go to home depot, get some aluminum tape, it's like $5/roll. Excelent stuff, wrap those heater lines in it.

If you want toi go all out, get that, and the 'water heater/pipe tape', also aluminum, but with a thick layer of foam.

I stopped losing hoses/wires when I wrapped everything in it. Super cheap, stays on, and works better.

The second fitting is on the far side of the diaphram, if you don't want to reference atmospheric.

+1. Wow.

Wow, you went to a manual rack.

That exhaust wrap has been holding up for more than few years now...

yeah the new car I put together has manual rack, it's so choice.

I finally got a chance to run out and finish bolting it up and to check for leaks. All seems well, i think i wired it wrong cause I only got wastegate pressure. I need to fool around with it later this evening or tomorrow to see how it reacts at 13psi.

Before I removed the first turbo I made sure to take a good 4th gear log of my spool. Starting at 2600rpm or so when I hit WOT.

This morning I went to the same stretch of road and did the same. This should have given me the best comparison of the two. I'm only hitting my target boost about 100rpm faster vs. rpm, but the interesting thing seems to be the rate of RPM increase. When I overlay the two the rpms increase faster.

I even went as far as to make sure the ending RPM was exactly 4K so the scaling should be more or less spot on. Looking at the two I even hit WOT with the new turbo 100rpm less than the new one, yet my rpms increase much faster.

This makes me think I'm making more torque lower just like I wanted. I can still play with the timing and wastegate rod to try to increase the speed, but this mornings drive I could tell the power delivery was much smoother and there was less of a torque surge when the turbo made boost.

My duty cycles are a lot higher with the same AFR during spool, so that for sure means more torque.

http://www.boostedmiata.com/logs/new...comparison.png

Hell Yeah!

i still wish it spooled a little faster.

Do you have a cat? I have a shop vac plugged into an inverter and it sucks on the tailpipe, it bought me lots of spool.

Retard your timing just a bit, maybe enrichen slightly, under lower boost, see if you get more spool out of it.

What??

How did I miss this thread...

Yet again, the ebay is calling me for cheap turbo options. I'm now on an even lower budget than before, so I don't know if I can even afford this. Good to see people trying the ebay stuff though. I don't see why it can't be as reliable, or at least close to something like Garrett. If not, for 1/5 the cost, why not.

Exactly what is your spool now? You say you aren't happy with it? Is it much improved from the old setup?

I see to be hitting 13psi in 4th at around 3600RPM, was closer to 3700-3800. My issue is, in 2nd and 3rd the number is significantly higher, so I was hoping for a turbo that was a little outputting a little better in low-rpms in low gear.

My butt dyno says I got more low-end and less torque "surge," but the real dyno will be able to tell for sure.

Look forward to official results.

maybe in a few weeks ill head out with NeoGenesis and strap it up.

If I don't bend a rod from making 300whp, something is wrong....I can't wait!

Line 'em up boyz: China vs. USA!

Can you get the tape with the foam at home depot to? I only saw the metal tape.

That's where I got it, by the water heaters, they sell it to keep your pipes from bursting in winter.

The stuff is good, but you have to put it on (spiral) then wrap it in regular alum tape. But it works very well, and is cheap and easy to apply.

http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/54094920_2JjX7-M.jpg


http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/54095026_vaRrV-M.jpg

http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/55013448_XRXL4-M.jpg

It would have been better if he had dynoed against my previous turbo, as they were the same thing, albeit my compressor was .07" larger.

We also share the same intercooler and 3" exhausting. And while I have a ported head, he has that shortly ETD manifold, so it would be a pretty cool comparison.

not so fast, whitey.

http://gallery.y8s.com/d/449-3/gt25_86ar_06.jpg

Buuut... Allied Signal / Honeywell / Garrett is a US based company. Like Mazda is a Japan based company, but many of their cars are manufactured here in the 'States. ;)

oh yeah, in case any one cares:

Garrett 50 trim T3:
compressor: 48mm in. and 60mm ex
turbine: 48.7mm exducer and 59mm inducer.

eBay 50 trim T3:
compressor: 42mm in. and 60mm ex
turbine: 45mm exducer and 63.5mm inducer.

I put together a DSM that belongs to a good friend of mine, we have been beating the piss out of his car since january...its an EBAY EVO GT...24lbs of boost and nothing less...so far its been wonderful. Im a believer...

Braineack, this is great that you are trying the Chinacharger's since they cost so much less than Garrett. It looks like the compressor ext is equivalent of GTxx60, but the rest are different. Newbie question here, which Garrett is the closest equivalent?

If it were a brand new Garrett offering it would be labeled as a GT2960 50 trim.

Garrett has a pretty straight forward naming convention:

It will always start with GT
The next two digits correlate with turbine size series
The next two digits correlate with compressor diameter in mm
The last four represent characteristics like Ball Bearing (R) or Variable Nozzle (A)


On paper my old Super 60 T3 wheel is the same as a GT2860 compressor wheel. The measurements and trim are identical, I believe the new Garrett turbos have a slightly different profile/shape to improve efficiency.

You can see here how a 2560 and a T3 Super 60 are nearly identical as far as compressor maps are concerned:

http://www.boostedmiata.com/random/t3vs2560.jpg


Where the T3 differs is the turbine, it has a larger turbine than a GT28 series turbo. But just slightly smaller than a GT30 turbine. This is why I've always found it funny when people call a GT2560 large. This is why my spool has always been on the slightly sluggish side, but I've always made great power and torque at redline.



The new compressor wheel, why still physically larger than a GT2854 or GT2557, outputs at the GT2554 & GT2854 levels, due to the trim:

http://www.boostedmiata.com/technica...rwhp_12psi.jpg

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...71-3comp_e.jpg

Notice both at 1.8PR (12psi) run out of efficiency around 25 lb/min (+/- 230BHP)

This is why I swapped wheels, since I'm autoxing more and DD the car pretty much all summer, I wanted something a little more peppy down low. My butt dyno says I've picked up around 20 ft/lbs below 4K. I can tell I've lost a little up top, but that could be an effect of the drop in peak torque, not sure if the torque at redline is still around where I was prior.

Now while I'm still not getting to peak boost (13psi) much faster, I've noticed I'm in low boost faster and it feel quicker as it spools. I had to add a bunch of fuel where I spool so I know it's outputting more torque. The previous wheel made boost fast too, don't get me wrong, but I notice that I'm however at 2-3psi if I'm not even trying, It's much easier to get this turbo from vacuum to boost lets say. I'm enjoying driving it around so far and hopefully it's all not a placebo effect and the dyno confirms my butt.

Neo, I see your back in the game?

not to bring up dead threads but how is the chinacharger holding up, if it is working out well I was looking into getting one from the same seller.