Roda

So, 10 years into this Miata thing the chassis is ready, cage is built, and we've got lots of track time N/A under our belts. Time for some power, and I'm looking for some advice on turbo choice. Car is a VVT swapped NA running on MS3, primarly just for HPDE fun, but I'm also interested in running NASA TT4 or similar TT classes. I expect 220-225 whp to do the trick.

No big HP goals down the road, been there, done that with fast cars and $$$$ costs. Already have a Kraken T25 manifold/downpipe and intercooler core in hand. Also have a spare VVT engine, and have been collecting parts for an engine build, but hoping to run the current motor for at least a year .

Now I know the best answer is probably K swap, and I've seriously considered it but the additional cost and install time would push this back at least another year.

I'm looking primarily at GT2560R and GT2554R, both are tried/true Miata turbos. Is there any reason to go with a GT2554R over the GT2560R on a track car that is unlikely to ever be under 3500rpm on track? Some old threads praise the GT2554R for anything under 230whp, but that was 10-15 years ago, and a lot has changed since then. I know the current trend is "EFR all the things", but with my power goals an EFR seems like overkill, costs almost double what the GT turbos cost, and would require buying another manifold/downpipe.

Are there other (T25 pattern) turbos I should be considering?

Ted75zcar

iTrader: (2)

I would look at both the gtx2860 and 2863. They are certainly more capable than your target, but will also require less wastegate and lower manifold pressure to hold 220hp. If you truly are always over 3500, the 2554 and 2560 lose their advantages.

Edit: VVT will provide very little advantage there as well, and is quite a bit more complicated. BP4W would be my advice.

Roda

Thanks, I'll take a look at those.

VVT engine has been in the car for a few years, and I've got another one under the bench. I'm kind of committed...

shuiend

iTrader: (24)

A GBC22-350 might be worth trying out when they come out in a few weeks.

Midtenn

iTrader: (15)

I was discussing turbo sizes for a turbo race car yesterday. His thought is that a larger turbo makes the car easier to drive. A slightly slower spool up might be the difference smoothly laying down power and laying rubber coming out of a corner. I've already got a EFR6258 (GTLC at ~200whp), but we discussed GT28XX turbos as an alternative.

Arca_ex

iTrader: (2)

TT4 alright alright alright.

If you're going with the more budget friendly Garrett (still awesome turbos as well), you'll be sitting right in the fat part of the compressor efficiency island with a GT2560r for that power level. I tried to find dyno plots for the GT2860r but the only one I found made like 280whp at 12.5 PSI on a BP4W on the larger .86a/r turbine housing. Maybe a .64a/r housing on the GT2860r would be good but when you're down around the 8 to 10 PSI mark I'm guessing to keep it around 225whp, and you start to fall into the bottom of the compressor map and that size turbo would really like to be running a bit harder in order to be more efficient. The larger turbo is going to stress the engine a bit less though, and should have lower compressor outlet temps so you'd be dumping less heat into your radiator via the intercooler, I just wish someone had some lower boost plots of it to see how it does. Your perfect turbo size is unfortunately in between the 2560 and the 2860...

codrus

Of the ones mentioned, for 220 rwhp a 2560 would be my choice. The 2860 hurts spool and while you may never be below the boost threshold that still means it's a bit lazier on the transient throttle response even at higher revs. My Miata has a GTX2863R in it and the difference in response between it and the 2560 that it replaced is noticeable.

My TT4 car doesn't have a turbo of any kind in it, though.

--Ian

Roda

I looked hard at the K swap, but it would take me at least a year longer to get there... and have you seen prices on K24Z3 engines lately?


That's kind of where I'm at... most of the info available are builds looking to get max power, not trying to be efficient at 220whp.

Seems like the answer keeps coming up 2560...

Arca_ex

iTrader: (2)

Quick look at Car-Part says they're up to $600 to $800 range now. Geez. They used to be available for $400 all day, but honestly they are still cheap. Good Miata engines are going for the same price or more, and if you end up doing a basic refresh and rods/bearings you're already WAY over the price of the K. The big appeal to me was dirt cheap repair cost in the event of catastrophic failure, just drop in another junkyard motor and be on my way instead of potentially trashing a built Miata engine that cost 4k+ to put together.

I don't blame you for going the turbo route either though, it's still a good way to do it especially since you're already kind of set up for it.

Let me ask a few more people tomorrow about the turbo size and I'll reply again.

Spaceman Spiff

if these are affordable that gets my vote, but if it's within ~$300 of an efr 6258 I don't see a reason not to upgrade to ceramic ball bearings over the journal (or go back to the 2560r tried and true). The GBC22-300 might actually be more efficient for your application looking at the compressor map.

Roda

On Co-Part they were $900-1200...

Should be about the same price as a GT turbo, and the compressor map looks great, but I wonder what it gives up with journal bearings?

yossi126

iTrader: (6)

I would go with a 2554, Plenty of headroom at that power level and throttle response is unbeatable compared to what is mentioned here.
And you would benefit from a functioning vvt.

Roda

VVT is working, and has been since the car was swapped 4 years ago.

Thanks all, for the info and input.

Arca_ex

iTrader: (2)

Okay, GT2560r, final answer lol.

Roda

Yup.

Arca_ex

iTrader: (2)

Excellent. There's going to be some good competition forming for TT4 and ST4 for next season for sure. Yourself and @yuba with the turbo Miatas and we can see how it stacks up against a K swap. I also know of like 4 or 5 other people that are currently building for that class as well. BMW's both E36 and E46, Honda Civic, maybe an S2k or two.

Roda

The only other thing the car still needs is suspension bushings, and I'm on SadFab's waiting list for a set. I'm also collecting parts to beef up the shortblock on my spare VVT engine, but I'm hoping the current engine will survive the low boost for the first year.

shuiend

iTrader: (24)

That's a pretty turbo, glad it got to you quickly.

yuba

Curious to see your dyno once you're done. Happy to see another TT4 car out there.

When I was tuned at UMS they showed me what the Evo10/VVT motor that Austin ran in nationals years ago made and said it was on the verge of spitting its guts out down low. I made something like 248 wheel torque at like 3500 or 3700 being conservative on their dyno and the VVT/Evo build came on like 500rpm earlier.

220whp says you're also going to be on 100tw, which makes me happy since I'm unwilling to pay for purple tires. I've been considering adding power to run TT3 for contingency since 4 is dead this year.

icantlearn

Who knows, mabe ill show up to an AZ region ST4 race to play with you guys. I need more turbo miata competition .