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Old 02-08-2009, 03:49 PM   #1
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Default Turbo Miata Build Plan

I am in the planning stages of a Miata turbo build on my 99 NB. The goal is ~200rwhp with a focus on durability and thermal management for road course track duty. The car will regularly see 40 minute sessions at full load on the high desert tracks of SoCal. The car is also a daily driver and will continue to be. I have a brand new Garrett GT2560R that has been sitting in a box in my garage for 7 years which will be the centerpiece or the system. Here is my plan so far including some questions Iíd like to get input on.

1)Engine Management Ė In my mind, the basis of any good turbo system is strong flexible engine management. Iím leaning toward an Xede for my project. I have extensive experience with a full stand alone since I used a TEC3 on my Rx7 project. The plus of a full stand alone is it gives you control of everything, but the installation is a huge amount of work. There is also the issue of tuning part throttle for good drivability. I like the advantage of using Mazdaís part throttle tuning and auxiliary system control (idle speed, cooling fans, etc.) plus the PnP offered by the Xede. I also considered the MS but there doesnít appear to be a PnP version for the 99. Iíve heard good things about the Xede but would be interested to hear from anyone who has direct experience with it. Does anyone have starter maps I could have access to?

2)Manifold and Downpipe Ė Iím still on the fence about what manifold to use. To me, durability is the most important issue here. I am definitely not going to fab my own manifold but I can do my own downpipe if necessary. While I like the performance of a tubular manifold like the BEGI S4, I am really concerned about cracking. I know lots of people who have had cracking problems with tubular manifolds (in all kinds of applications). On the other hand, being able to buy a matching manifold and downpipe really simplifies things. What is the durability record of the S4? I could go with a log type manifold (and there are quite a few to choose from) but I like the performance advantages of a weld-ell shorty like the ETD and the Absurdflow. I definitely want a stainless manifold. How durable have these manifolds been and are there any other shortys out there to consider?
3)Intercooler Ė For my 200 hp target, I think a smallish intercooler will be sufficient. I want to keep the system volume down for good throttle response. I am also thinking of using an over the top pipe routing like 18psiís. That install is awesome. Anyone found a good US source for an IC with in/out pipes pointing up?

4)Fuel System Ė I think 420 cc/min injectors should be adequate for 200 rwhp. I plan on picking up some Rx8 or Supra turbo injectors for the job. According to the interchange info I found on the forum, either should be PnP and the right impedance. Please correct me if I am wrong. I know I need a dual feed fuel rail to combat a #4 lean condition. Either a Vishnu or M-Tuned rail should do the trick. I know the Vishnu rail works well. Does anyone have direct experience with the M-Tuned rail on a 99? How is the fit? I plan to use my stock 3g Rx7 fuel pump (left over from that project). My big question is, what happens in a returnless fuel system when you put in a bigger pump? Anyone done this?

5)Thermal Management Ė I already have a Ron Davis radiator installed and plan to use brgracerís spacerless coolant reroute. We did it on our turbo Lemons car and it worked great. Iím sure an oil cooler is in my future too but havenít thought too much about that yet.

If I left anything important out, please let me know. TIA for your inputs.

Dan
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Old 02-08-2009, 03:54 PM   #2
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I wouldnt chance 420's. Do 550's and be done with it, and have a bit of head room if you decide to turn up the boost a bit. I hear good things about the Xede, though the total of people who run them that I have seen I can probably count on one hand. Any reason you have to have a stainless? I thought the Bell cast manifold was pretty good, and durable. Then again my turbo Miata count is about 0, so what do I know.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:08 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTurbo View Post
I am in the planning stages of a Miata turbo build on my 99 NB. The goal is ~200rwhp with a focus on durability and thermal management for road course track duty. The car will regularly see 40 minute sessions at full load on the high desert tracks of SoCal. The car is also a daily driver and will continue to be. I have a brand new Garrett GT2560R that has been sitting in a box in my garage for 7 years which will be the centerpiece or the system. Here is my plan so far including some questions Iíd like to get input on.

1)Engine Management Ė In my mind, the basis of any good turbo system is strong flexible engine management. Iím leaning toward an Xede for my project. I have extensive experience with a full stand alone since I used a TEC3 on my Rx7 project. The plus of a full stand alone is it gives you control of everything, but the installation is a huge amount of work. There is also the issue of tuning part throttle for good drivability. I like the advantage of using Mazdaís part throttle tuning and auxiliary system control (idle speed, cooling fans, etc.) plus the PnP offered by the Xede. I also considered the MS but there doesnít appear to be a PnP version for the 99. Iíve heard good things about the Xede but would be interested to hear from anyone who has direct experience with it. Does anyone have starter maps I could have access to?

2)Manifold and Downpipe Ė Iím still on the fence about what manifold to use. To me, durability is the most important issue here. I am definitely not going to fab my own manifold but I can do my own downpipe if necessary. While I like the performance of a tubular manifold like the BEGI S4, I am really concerned about cracking. I know lots of people who have had cracking problems with tubular manifolds (in all kinds of applications). On the other hand, being able to buy a matching manifold and downpipe really simplifies things. What is the durability record of the S4? I could go with a log type manifold (and there are quite a few to choose from) but I like the performance advantages of a weld-ell shorty like the ETD and the Absurdflow. I definitely want a stainless manifold. How durable have these manifolds been and are there any other shortys out there to consider?
3)Intercooler Ė For my 200 hp target, I think a smallish intercooler will be sufficient. I want to keep the system volume down for good throttle response. I am also thinking of using an over the top pipe routing like 18psiís. That install is awesome. Anyone found a good US source for an IC with in/out pipes pointing up?

4)Fuel System Ė I think 420 cc/min injectors should be adequate for 200 rwhp. I plan on picking up some Rx8 or Supra turbo injectors for the job. According to the interchange info I found on the forum, either should be PnP and the right impedance. Please correct me if I am wrong. I know I need a dual feed fuel rail to combat a #4 lean condition. Either a Vishnu or M-Tuned rail should do the trick. I know the Vishnu rail works well. Does anyone have direct experience with the M-Tuned rail on a 99? How is the fit? I plan to use my stock 3g Rx7 fuel pump (left over from that project). My big question is, what happens in a returnless fuel system when you put in a bigger pump? Anyone done this?

5)Thermal Management Ė I already have a Ron Davis radiator installed and plan to use brgracerís spacerless coolant reroute. We did it on our turbo Lemons car and it worked great. Iím sure an oil cooler is in my future too but havenít thought too much about that yet.

If I left anything important out, please let me know. TIA for your inputs.

Dan

Few questions. Will this need to be CARB compliant? I would suggest a standalone myself if you can run one. Keeping A/C and P/S?

I would buy cast manifold from FM or Begi and build your own downpipe. Begi has a hard time building downpipes that fit, and they aren't hard to do, especially if you run 2.5". I would run 3" if I were you though. I run 3" on mine. I also run an external WG though. If you had the time to invest, I would build a weld-ell 4:1 manifold similar in style to a Begi S4.

Fuel- hehehe. The stock fuel system SUCKS! Most never fix it and deal with it. But it seriously is weak. On a stock engine the fuel system can't hold the factory 62 PSI to redline. It drops down in the low 50's even with a new fuel pump. A 190HP Walbro doesn't fix this either. A 255HP does.

You don't need a dual feed fuel rail. Not at all. The #4 problem is largely falsely known to be caused by a fuel issue. It's not. It's the factory coolant routing. The hotter the engine gets, the more the thermostat opens, the less cooling cylinder four gets. A coolant reroute fixes this, restoring the coolant route to the way in which mazda originally designed it for the 323.

If having a solid fuel system is important to you, I'd replace the returnless setup for a return style. In this case, a 190HP, NA miata sending unit installed in the 99' tank, and then run a return line to it. Add an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and you're set.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:28 PM   #4
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as low as my duty cycles are with 550s at 250 rwhp, i'd think 420s would be fine for 200...

I'd seriously recommend getting a full engine management system and running it parallel, not piggy back. I'm planning to do this with my hydra (which will be very non-standard) so I can have OBD2 compliance. the tuning of part throttle is a minor issue. there's about 50 samples of timing maps and fuel maps on this site to get you very well sorted.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:40 PM   #5
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Don't assume for a second you'll be stopping at 200whp. I figured I'd be thrilled at 200, and now I'm at 230-240 and looking for more. With that in mind, get 550cc injectors. I have 460s, they are maxed out and I wish I had just done 550s from the start.

For the ECU, the Xede is a decent choice. Plenty of folks have nice results, and it is PnP.

For the manifold and DP, if you want durability, the best option is Bell's divided cast manifold (S2/S3). It simply won't crack. You may lose a little performance compared to a tubular shorty, but if you're only looking for 200whp anyway you'll never notice.

For IC pipes, the over-the-top either requires you to lean the rad back or cut the hood or cut the radiator support or a combination of those three. The increase in throttle response is nearly non-existent. Just go around the radiator; it's MUCH easier to route and install.

Big radiator, good. Coolant reroute, good. Thinking about an oil cooler, good. I used a Mocal sandwich with a built-in thermostat, push-lock fittings and lines, and a cheap bar/plate cooler. I think you can get everything except the fittings from Racer Parts Wholesale.

You'll need a clutch; look at FM's Stage 2 clutch or an ACT HD with a street disc. For exhaust, get a 3" and don't consider anything else.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:41 PM   #6
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There is no 'plug-and-play' for the 99 but with a boomslang harness, and either a CAS and a MS-1 (what I have), or a MS2 with the mods for the '99 (some discussion on this here) you are pretty close to plug and play. Once the MS is built (DIY, or pay someone to do it) you can easily get it installed and running in one weekend. That is including the injector swap. There are some timing maps and VE maps here that will get you close enough to drive it. Basically, you can load a conservative tuning map, load a conservative VE table, then use a wideband o2 and megalogviewer to tune the fuel. Then you can head to the dyno for the timing tune.

Definitely budget for a wideband o2 sensor. Megatune, Megalogviewer, and a WBO2 sensor kick much *** for VE tuning.

I would get the 550s. When you inevitably decide to run more boost you will have more headroom.

Intercoolers are cheap on ebay, like the CXRacing units. They have some v-mount style units with the pipes pointing up.

I have been interested in the BEGI tubular mani, but would not want to use it unless it was daily driver reliable. I am not sure if it is or not. Ask BEGI. Right now I have the cast directed pulse unit and it works fine. My BEGI SS downpipe fit great on the first try.
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Old 02-09-2009, 01:48 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Few questions. Will this need to be CARB compliant? I would suggest a standalone myself if you can run one. Keeping A/C and P/S?

I would buy cast manifold from FM or Begi and build your own downpipe. Begi has a hard time building downpipes that fit, and they aren't hard to do, especially if you run 2.5". I would run 3" if I were you though. I run 3" on mine. I also run an external WG though. If you had the time to invest, I would build a weld-ell 4:1 manifold similar in style to a Begi S4.

Fuel- hehehe. The stock fuel system SUCKS! Most never fix it and deal with it. But it seriously is weak. On a stock engine the fuel system can't hold the factory 62 PSI to redline. It drops down in the low 50's even with a new fuel pump. A 190HP Walbro doesn't fix this either. A 255HP does.

You don't need a dual feed fuel rail. Not at all. The #4 problem is largely falsely known to be caused by a fuel issue. It's not. It's the factory coolant routing. The hotter the engine gets, the more the thermostat opens, the less cooling cylinder four gets. A coolant reroute fixes this, restoring the coolant route to the way in which mazda originally designed it for the 323.

If having a solid fuel system is important to you, I'd replace the returnless setup for a return style. In this case, a 190HP, NA miata sending unit installed in the 99' tank, and then run a return line to it. Add an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and you're set.
Having a CARB compliant system isn't manditory in my mind but it sure would be nice not to have to worry about smog every 2 years. I have been considering a BEGI kit for just that reason but not sure if I want to spend the money, especially since I would probably want to change some things.

The car will remain a daily driver plus its a long drive to the high desert tracks in the summer time so I want to keep both AC and PS.

What's your opinion of the ETD or Absurd flow manifolds? Seems like they get you close to the S4 with the heavier wall of weld-ells and without the time required to fab your own. Only question is, what is the durability of those manifolds?

Thanks for the tip on the fuel rail. If I don't need it, I can save the $$$ for something else. I also really like your idea for back-dating to a return fuel system, especially since I happen to have a 94 fuel tank complete with sending unit in my back yard leftover from one of our Lemons parts cars. Will the 94 sending unit bolt right into my 99 tank?
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:24 AM   #8
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I dont think absurd flow currently fits with AC and PS, but Tim is working on that.

ETD does I believe. Jason Cuadra is running the shorty now and probably can tell you more.

there's really no reason to upgrade or downgrade the 99-00 fuel system if you're staying below 275 rwhp. quite a few of us run 550cc injectors on the stock returnless everything (well, I have a fuel rail) and have very good reliability. and mine is a 90k mile 2001. with a good tune, i can idle in the mid 14 AFRs.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:39 AM   #9
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I dont think absurd flow currently fits with AC and PS, but Tim is working on that.

ETD does I believe. Jason Cuadra is running the shorty now and probably can tell you more.

there's really no reason to upgrade or downgrade the 99-00 fuel system if you're staying below 275 rwhp. quite a few of us run 550cc injectors on the stock returnless everything (well, I have a fuel rail) and have very good reliability. and mine is a 90k mile 2001. with a good tune, i can idle in the mid 14 AFRs.
My suggestion for changing the fuel system is because the stock system (on my 99 at least, other 99' owners experience the same thing) can't hold fuel pressure as I described. What's worse is the pressure variance is not consistent. So I may tune to run 12.6:1 today and tomorrow it's running 12.4:1, next day 12.9, etc. Your argument is similar to that of a reroute. Is it really necessary? Thousands of people run without one and have success. But that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. I personally won't tune my motor too lean in boost because I'm afraid I could tune it with high pressure and then it drop on me and I run too lean. I still see variances in my AFR's, but whether it runs 11.5, 11.4, or 11.8 doesn't matter as they're all rich and safe. But I wouldn't tune it to 12.5. (like another 99' owner who recently bent a rod from, who knows what, maybe a drop in fuel pressure + lean = detonation? ).
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Old 02-09-2009, 12:20 PM   #10
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I dont think absurd flow currently fits with AC and PS, but Tim is working on that.

ETD does I believe. Jason Cuadra is running the shorty now and probably can tell you more.

there's really no reason to upgrade or downgrade the 99-00 fuel system if you're staying below 275 rwhp. quite a few of us run 550cc injectors on the stock returnless everything (well, I have a fuel rail) and have very good reliability. and mine is a 90k mile 2001. with a good tune, i can idle in the mid 14 AFRs.
Are you still running the stock pump?
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Old 02-09-2009, 12:31 PM   #11
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If you tune for like 11.5:1 or so in boost you'll be fine with the stock system. But you mention you'll be tracking the car, and it sounds like you're identifying and fixing weak points to minimize failures and looking to maximize efficiencies wherever possible. Redoing the fuel system would be a good idea IMO. Kinda like a reroute and oil cooler are a good idea.
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Old 02-09-2009, 12:37 PM   #12
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Are you still running the stock pump?
yep. stock FPR too.

here's what my fuel looks like on the dyno:
(pink line is fuel--also note that I've since richened it up about half an AFR point)

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Old 02-09-2009, 02:03 PM   #13
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The BEGI cast iron manifold is CARB compliant, however the S4 manifold is not. We have had the S4 manifolds on the road for two years now. The ONLY crack came from an MSM that did not have a BEGI support brace installed with it at the same time. So, I honestly would not worry too much about the durability of it on a street car.

Now, the S4 manifold has not been run for an extended period of time on a track car, that I know of. So if it is beat up regularly on the track, I really could not tell you what it would do. I think that Matt Kock's car will be a good test of durability and longevity.
Stephanie
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:41 PM   #14
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So, I honestly would not worry too much about the durability of it on a street car.
Stephanie
Anyone want to buy a 2560 and a cast manfold? I want a S4 and a 2871
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Old 02-09-2009, 05:02 PM   #15
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The BEGI cast iron manifold is CARB compliant, however the S4 manifold is not. We have had the S4 manifolds on the road for two years now. The ONLY crack came from an MSM that did not have a BEGI support brace installed with it at the same time. So, I honestly would not worry too much about the durability of it on a street car.

Now, the S4 manifold has not been run for an extended period of time on a track car, that I know of. So if it is beat up regularly on the track, I areally could not tell you what it would do. I think that Matt Kock's car will be a good test of durability and longevity.
Stephanie
Stephanie,

Thanks a lot for your input. I have been browsing the BEGI site and am seriously considering your manifolds. I have no doubt that the cast manifold will be durable. I also really like the S4 but I am concerned about how it will handle long durations at full load. My wife and I hot lap our Miata in back to back sessions (40 minutes total) in the SoCal high desert. We probably have 10K track miles on the stock setup so far. It's also one of our daily drivers. Unfortunately, I don't think even years of proven street reliability are an indication of durability under those conditions. Do you know of any customers you could put me in touch with who have put an S4 through those kinds of conditions? (Has Matt's car seen lots of track time?) I would also like to see a picture of the brace you are referring to. I can't see it on any of the pics I could find on your site. Can you post one to the forum?

Thanks,

Dan
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Old 02-09-2009, 05:09 PM   #16
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yep. stock FPR too.

here's what my fuel looks like on the dyno:
(pink line is fuel--also note that I've since richened it up about half an AFR point)

Cool. If I scale my power targets (200 hp) to your power (250 hp) and my planned 420cc injectors to your 550s, I estimate I will be at a duty cycle of 79% based on your measured injector duty cycles. That's a great data point to have. Of course, that all assumes everything scales linearly and my fuel delivery pressures will be the same as yours.
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Old 02-09-2009, 05:19 PM   #17
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Stephanie,

Thanks a lot for your input. I have been browsing the BEGI site and am seriously considering your manifolds. I have no doubt that the cast manifold will be durable. I also really like the S4 but I am concerned about how it will handle long durations at full load. My wife and I hot lap our Miata in back to back sessions (40 minutes total) in the SoCal high desert. We probably have 10K track miles on the stock setup so far. It's also one of our daily drivers. Unfortunately, I don't think even years of proven street reliability are an indication of durability under those conditions. Do you know of any customers you could put me in touch with who have put an S4 through those kinds of conditions? (Has Matt's car seen lots of track time?) I would also like to see a picture of the brace you are referring to. I can't see it on any of the pics I could find on your site. Can you post one to the forum?
Thanks,
Dan
I cannot think of anyone that has a dedicated track car with a S4 manifold. There may be one or two, but I cannot remember off hand.

Here is a photo of the mounting brace. It goes from the motor mount to the downpipe.
Stephanie
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Old 02-09-2009, 09:48 PM   #18
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For engine mangement if you want PNP you might want to check out the hydra. FM is doing a groupbuy on them right now.
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:16 PM   #19
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For engine mangement if you want PNP you might want to check out the hydra. FM is doing a groupbuy on them right now.
Do you know what the group price will be? The regular price for the Hydra at over $2k is a bit out of my price range.
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:27 PM   #20
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200 off.

you'd do almost as well with a used 2.1 or 2.5 version function-wise.
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