Turbo too small?
 

So I came across a Garrett GT1446 from a 1.4L dodge dart. I have a NA6 which I'm considering going turbo. With this set up, I'm assuming i'll hit full boost at very low RPMs but would it chock the exhaust at high RPMs due too the turbo's small size? I would like to get your guy's opinion on this set up.

Don't do it. Bad idea for many reasons.

This turbo was well matched to our 0.45L FSAE car.

Use it as a cup holder or something and get yourself a cheap SR20 turbo for cheap.

Can you get another one just like it?

I like the way Joe thinks....

What would be the smallest turbo you would put on a 1.6L?.. I'm not looking for peak hp, 150-160hp would be ideal

If you can make a manifold I'd get a K03 from a VW or Mini. Still something I want to do, will be crazy peaky for awesome spool but will choke flow to around 160-180 on top. They are crazy cheap, those guys like upgrading to k04s. Or there's the BMW twin turbo M car, get one of those turbos.

There's a few guys done it around the internet, not many here I've seen...

something in the GT2052 size range. it's going to spool fast, make a shit ton of tq at 3-4K, then choke off past 5K. your peak tq will be much higher than peak HP and it would be a very twitchy and unfun miata to drive anywhere but the highway.

Just do a GT2554r

whats the point in turbocharging if only for 150hp

This..

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...5032-post-.jpg

If you want a low-powered turbo Miata, you could always buy a stock MSM. :)

--Ian

Having the biggest balls in the room doesn't mean you'll have the most fun. I would honestly keep my drive train stock if it had just a tab bit more tq.

I have most of the items needed to turbo the NA6, I'm just missing the exhaust manifold (and apparently a different turbo).. it'll be much easier and cheaper to finish this project than to try to sell it and then look for a well maintained MSM

this isn't about balls. this is about spending at least 2 grand to make 30hp

it sounds like you just need a 1.8 vvt swap and nothing else

I suspect that most of us probably said that to ourselves at one time. I know that I did.

Boost is addictive. You start at 5 PSI. Then you upgrade the injectors and add an intercooler. Then you throw a decent MBC at it. Then water injection. Before you know it, you're peaking at 230 WHP and wishing you'd gone just a little larger on the turbo.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1460753770

You knew it was bound to happen.

I was happy with 10 psi. For a week.

I went up the boost tree like this.

Turbo in and street tuned...

"My car is only 1900lbs, this T25 on wastegate will be fine"

3 days later..

"I wonder if I can get a few more PSI if I preload my wastegate"

2 days later..

"Screw this, I'm getting an EBC"

Running 11psi through this 1.6L controlled by an EBC has been one of the best decisions I have made with the car. The little SR20 turbo spools pretty well considering the cost and availability of manifold/DP combos.

I was happy at 24 psi... for a week. Now I want 30. :)

--Ian

this.

if you want 140-150hp, buy a 1.8 VVT.



the SR20 T25 is not a fast spooling turbo on a 1.6L (really, nothing is)


here's the SR20 T25 on a 1.8L vs a 1.6l:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1460817617



even something small like a GT2552 cant spool well on a 1.6L miata:


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1460817523

the cam profile prevents it.


1.6L turbo setups are fucking stupid. the 1.6L motor is complete dogshit. :P

I'd say go for it if you can fab all your own parts. Boost threshold will be low and vertically no lag in any normal street driving rpm range. However the fact that your asking instead of posting pics of your homemade manifold with the turbo having off tells me this my not be the way for you. It will end up costing you more to pay others to do your fab work than it would to buy quality used, known to work parts.... FM mani, down pipe, and 2554.

Also you will change the way the engine wants to run. It will probably start to sign off by about 5k and really be falling hard by 6. This means you've basically lowered your usable rpm by about 1000 rpm. You could probably tune a boost controller keep the boost up a bit in the upper rpms, but you will most likely be over spinning the turbo... So reliability becomes an issue.

Of course this is speculation as I've not seen the compressor map for your turbo in question. However I have seen and driven a K03 from a late 90's 1.8t Audi/VW on a 1.8 Miata. The car was a great street car at 5psi. But it wanted to be short shifted due to falling boost (and of course torque) past 6k. Which was fine because there was plenty more lower rpm torque to be found in the next gear. Kind of like a little 4 cylinder muscle car. 5 psi by 1800 rpm dropping to 4 at about 6k. Torque was plenty useable. It was to the right of the compressor map by about 6500rpm.

So if you want to do it and can fab your own parts, go for it. But know there will be limitations right out of the box. A used fm mani and a 2554 is a lot more suited to this engine though and will probably cost about the same.

Why oh why didnt i put a 1.8 in before deciding to DIY a manifold. Fuck sake :eggplant:

1.6 w/ TD-04 @ 10PSI
 

Hey, I resemble that remark! My 92 Miata w/ TD-04, HUGE intercooler, and Bipes APU work great -- no trick ECU or programmable stuff, this is just hard-wired and self-tuned. Boost goes 5-10PSI from ~3000 RPM to 7500 (red-line). Performance is acceptable, though we always want more. A 2007 BMW M3 got me but just barely. Spent $1,000 on the car (came turbo'd) and about $700 in fixing suspension and various other problems not relating to the engine.

Not sure what else I can do, supposedly I should be able to get another 4PSI out of this thing. I bought it running 5 PSI originally, tweaked it and now @ 10PSI. Drive it till it "pops" is my plan, then maybe upgrade. My setup is a band-aid style, but if it works, don't fuck with it right?

"It's not what you have, it's how you use it" :)

Sorry to pee in your cheerios, but:
07 m3 runs low 13's at 109mph
You're not even getting close to that trap speed in a janky band aid 1.6 miata.
Like, not even in the same zip code in a race. He'd have to be short shifting the car or flat out just messing with you to lose.

Yeah this happens...... Can confirm.....

If you wanna know what can you do to an engine with a too small turbo, just look at the first post in my build thread: https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo...p-miata-79849/

tiny turbo in most cases means tiny wastegate port, and so creep. Lots of. And creep to 18 psi at 3000 rpm isn't cool, it simply makes a big hole in the hottest piston
buy a 2554, it's common, cheap and it spool very fast

I couldn't imagine having to wait until 5k to get 10 psi. Good gawd. At 20 psi, I rarely rev past 5 k.

not a track day
 

This was just good fun on the street with a friend. And I lost, not by much. I hit 1/4 mile at about 95-97 mph. I have oversized rear tires and was double clutching. Maybe I had the better lane that day. That's why we race in cars and not on paper.

Edit: It is an 04 M3, not an 07.

Member since 2011 and these are your first two posts :rofl:

Even still, 95-97 vs 105-107 is a 10mph difference
Unless he wasn't racing or trying, its not even close

Theres a difference between a race and ricer fly by

yeah
 

Look for advice and find ridicule. Nice post. Wonder why I don't participate here. BTW: 2011 is when I bought this "janky" Miata.

The problem is that you're a ricer.
You think that just because you beat the driver of that car for whatever reason, that it's ok to go around and say that your 1.6 band aid miata can walk a m3.

that's nonsense.

we all know here what a band aid 1.6 miata runs and what a properly driven m3 runs. many here even have both cars.

I'll go race a bugatti veyron tomorrow in my son's big wheel, and come back and tell you guys "It's not what you have, it's how you use it"

herp derp

buying a 1.6 is strike 1. putting band aids on it is strike 2. talking about beating cars that trap 10mph more is strike 3.
3 strikes and your argument is invalid. have a nice day

I want to sig this so badly :party:

you made my point
 

You read way more into the message than what I wrote. Again, wonder why I bother here. I bought the car as a toy. Never said I could walk an M3. I just shared an experience while looking for advice on where to go next. Hope the ridicule helps others, sure doesn't help to tell people everything they did wrong. But whatever gets you off.

That's not really true

don't be so salty. its not that serious :)

elaborate?
 

Can you elaborate on this? Interested.

ahreed
 

Yeah I can use a decent dose of calm the F down, I am good with what I have so far for the $$$. I don't have lots of money or much time and space to work on my toy. I just like hauling ass as quickly as I can.

[eating (salty) humble pie] 😋. Lol.

there's no reason you cant run a small turbo at low boost.

look at the ford ecoboost line of turbos. Tiny turbo, quick spool no boost creep. if you look at the wastegate port it is in some cases just as large as the turbine diameter. The path of exhaust flow through the waste gate is also much more ideal than the garret gt25 turbos most people run. These aren't exactly "low boost" turbos but it all comes down to the design of the turbo.

Every turbo is different. Some will handle creep better than others.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1462217904

If a German forum about French cars can be trusted, this is a 1446, specifically from an Abarth 500:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1462219206


Now, I've no idea whether the Fiat-Chrysler partnership means that the Darté is running the same turbo, but it seems reasonable.

These Brits believe that said turbo peaks out around 225 HP.




I'm usually quite critical of the "I found this random turbo that isn't well-suited to the application, and I'm going to base my whole build around it because it was slightly cheaper than the correct turbo, so screw you guys and your logical arguments. Oh, and by the way, this is going on a 1.6 failblock to boot" builds. But in this case, I kind of want to see what will happen.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3828863773.png

I still think that's too small. Much smaller than a GT2554r. I don't see how 225 hp is possible as that would be like right at the edge of the compressor map for the MGT1446 (not right side of efficient part, like almost off the map). This turbo was matched decent to our 1 cylinder 450cc dirtbike motor. We ended up using the compressor off of an MGT1238 and the hotside form the MGT1446, but either way, it's ideal for a small motor. I can't see it having much room to grow on the Fiat 1.4L.

I'm really torn here...

On the one hand, it does intuitively seem too small for a Miata.

On the other hand, it's obviously not entirely too small for a 1.4L Fiat engine making 160 hp / 184 tq in what one supposes is likely a conservative factory tune.

On the gripping hand, it's quite probable that even the French have, by now, figured out how to design a head which is considerably less horrible than the 80s vintage copy of a 70s vintage tractor engine that Mazda stuck into the early Miatas, and that would shift things around on the compressor map quite a bit.

Still a teensey little turbine section...

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1462221550

If you want a sliiiiightly larger starting point, my friend needs to off load a brand new turbo from a 1.6L turbo Nisan Juke. That could be a fun build for 160-170 at the rear wheels on a 1.6 Miata. He was going to run it for shiggles but a nicer setup fell into his lap for cheap. I am rather sad, as it would have been fun to see what would happen with it.

Figuring the juke is 188hp, but likely a conservative tune/pressure, but the B6 head is a POS, so maybe about the same max.

Or gasp one of those silly supercharger kits that also make about 150 hp and bolt on. They seem to pop up on craigslist more or less complete with or without their bandaids for like $350 from time to time.

You could make close to that with a 1.8 with bolt ons. If you don't want a ton more power right now just swap a 1.8 and have the upgradeability to do a turbo later on and get moarofit

Probably one of the most "successful" attempts at a k03 This happens when you put a tiny turbo on a Miata : Miatapower List Archive : MX-5 Miata World Forum : MX-5 Miata World

I helped tune a TD04L-13T setup utilizing a turbo from a WRX. Running just a 2.5" exhaust, could hold 7psi or 12psi no problem. Thing made 175tq/175rwhp on a Dynapak dyno, which always read 12% lower than all my dynojet runs.

TQ was flat at 175 from like 1.5K till about 5.5K. It looked a lot like this:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1463051188

https://www.miataturbo.net/miata-par...-%24500-53553/

I've been considering trying out a ford fiesta 1.6 eco boost turbo on a bp engine. It's a tiny borg warner turbo. Lots of torque down low but it would most likely choke up at higher airflow. It would probably make for a great DD fun but now what I'd be looking for at the track.

What do you guys think?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1463062822

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1463062822

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1463062822

same as what you already think / know

Power wise I'd be happy with 180 or so whp at the track. But what would concern me is operating at a low efficiency part of the compressor map for an extended period of time and what that would do to intake temperatures.


It looks like it would kick the ass of a stock msm setup. I think I need a DD turbo miata and a track turbo miata.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1463065486

if you have proper fmic and ducting I don't see how it would be any worse than a bolt on msm or any of the MANY other small turbo cars that get tracked.

the biggest drawback is having to custom fab everything and likely having a non-interchangeable turbo/setup, not much else.

people track focus/fiesta st's all the time

touche.

I picked one up off ebay for $200. maybe I'll get around to testing this some day.

I always wanted to do that (create a diesel powerband setup)
just sounds like fun and amusing for a daily driver
never got around to it. hopefully you'll actually do it

Buying a random cheap turbo and building a setup around it is stupid, you should pick up a standard t25 off an SR20 and just run that.

/s

I don't think even a t25 would outspool this thing

but is it worth it? I dunno. I never found out

It's not a random cheap turbo. It's a carefully selected modern technology borg warner turbo that spools like nothing else out there. I pulled the trigger since you can buy them for cheap since Ford is using them everywhere. I still think it would be a really fun turbo setup. I'm just torn between should my dual duty weekend/track toy be more track or street oriented and if it will be worth the fab work. Plus I like wrenching on this car and no one has tried this combo yet so it's something I'd eventually like to test.

In for spool at 2000rpm.

We were going to do this on my friend's 1.6 (though with a brand new turbo from a 1.6L Nisan Juke he got for $100). But he ended up with a stupid good deal on an upgraded greddy kit (only thing original to the kit is the turbo and the oil lines...) For stupid cheap.

Maybe run a pair of the tiny turbos?

The /s was to show the end of my sarcasm. I think it is a very interesting idea and you are not a noob who does not know what they are doing. So I look forward to seeing the results. Sometime in the future I might even grab one just to play with if I ever get some free time.