Turbos for Dummies (aka noobs)
 

Let the ridicule begin….

In this thread, I hope to merge many clashing ideas in my head, learn a bit about the anatomy of a turbocharger and narrow down my choice for an appropriate turbo for my application and expected use.

Allow me to get a few particulars out of the way.
The plan. (pre-turbo installation, in no logical order)(if you’re a noob, write this part down)
Mspnp
Remote oil filter and oil cooler
Turn signal air intakes
Coolant reroute
Clutch
Ac/ps delete
Injectors (sized by hp goal+)

I believe: If I have these things accomplished, and I’m aquainted with MS, I should be ready for boost.

I like the idea of a small, fast spooling turbo as long as I can go down the highway at 65mph in 5th gear without being in heavy boost. If that sounds oxymoron, consider the source. If I must go with a bigger unit, to stay out of boost while on the highway at legal speeds, I want low/no boost until 3500 to 4000, then “The Lightswitch of Death” boost. In either case, I want switch-able bc from mild 185 to 200hp dd form to 225 to 235hp check out my tail-lights boost. In summary, I want the tourque of a small efficient unit (as long as its durable at sustained hiway speeds) over the instant on, high hp#, look at my swell, big unit. (but the big unit has its advantages) hp goal of 200 to 225 dd bulletproof setup. Sustainability will not be an afterthought.

As I read, numbers are thrown around that pertain to housing size, exhaust side and intake side. Trim, which I’m sure is referring to the impeller on each side. Internal wastegates, and how they work better with a divorced dp, and external wastegates, often helpful in the case of two separate boost levels. And, wheather or not its water cooled. As much as I read, I still can’t wrap my head around these properties:
.48 A/R
AR48, 50 trim AR60
This helps a little: GT 2860RS with the 0.64 turbine offers faster turbo spooling
GT2860RS with the 0.80 turbine is great for top end power levels

Is it important for me to know what the values are proposing? Or is it like a Mona Lisa, where as, I cant paint one, but I know it when I see it? Just ask one that knows, and move on??? Care to give a quick lesson? I understand that so many more parts will affect spool, other than the turbo, so lets assume I’ll do my homework on those parts also. Before they get installed. Additionally, what about water cooled compared to oil only? Is the oil only disadvantage a big hit to take? Finally, I found the time period, here at MT, when the v-band started to become prevalent.(it wasn’t trusted by all or popular in that transition period) Why does one guy want one, whereas the next wants a 5 bolt? Will either effect wastegate options?

In closing… I’m still lost, and as I read many of the noobs before me, ask stupid questions, without doing their homework… I’m successful at asking stupid questions even after I’ve done my homework.

wheres the obligitory GTFO?

Oh sorry-gtfo.

tl;dr

hmmm..... idk if you know but you wont see boost unless then engine is under load. With that said

Attachment 197995

It sounds like you're over thinking this. The whole "turn signal intakes, ps delete, coolant reroute, etc etc" are moot points. You can turbo your car without all that. It sounds like the best thing for you is to go and look at a bunch of dyno threads, see which powerband you want, look at what they have, and then copy.

This is odd to me. The MT boys hold a clinic on a daily basis. A self help clinic for the reading and planning impaired. I dont fit in that category. If you must come up with a new category to blast my ass for stupidity(over thinking), you need to do better than that. Thats fucking weak.

I want my Miata ready for boost MY way. I want the added room of a ps/ac delete. I want the added cooling of turn signal intakes. It may be a moot(english is complex, I know) point to you, but to me its the right way. Why should I not plan for success. BTW, I'm not going to copy someones setup when I don't understand it. I'm going to MS. Dyno. Injectors. AC/PS delete. Dyno. Get my oil cooler the way I know it should be. Make the oil filter "easy access, baby" ect. ect. ect...clutch, wideband, tps, COP, then boost. I'm a stupid fucking NOOB. (moneyshot quote)

If you don't know the answers to the questions I posed, then cuss me, call me a stupid noob, and kiss my ass, 'cause you probably dont know shit, except- how to copy. While we're at it. I have read quite a few dyno threads, and Brains 4th gear pull thread (I like Jay's plot)- the only good advise you gave. I also like Hustler's tenacity to get it right and do it his way, but I'm not gonna ride his jock long, he's a *****!

If you wanna dig in my ass for something.... I'm longwinded. Go back, and reread my op and think of the 15 idiots Brain knows with blown boosted motors, and try it again. I'll gladly humble myself to idiot status if it means I get to learn about a turbo for my 5er. You win. You have boost.

also... (edit)
i read this before i started to overthink my plans...


I figured I'd save some money and over think it.

careful, this guy seems like he may have been trained by Joe Perez or the like...

At any rate, I can't fully answer your question as I still look things up...but i will give you props for homework/research, properly explaining yourself, and for properly fending off attacks.

You sir, have potential

Ok.. well here's my contribution to your turbo knowledge. Your desire to cruise in 5th gear and be in vacuum really is a moot point. It doesn't matter how small the turbo is or how large it is. Whether you are in boost or not depends on engine load not rpm. At full throttle you are at full load on the engine and therefore you see full boost at some X rpm. However at cruise you are at a very low load on the engine and even at that X or higher rpm you will still not be in boost.

And just as an aside.. buy a wideband at the same you buy the MS. I'm still new to megasquirt, but anytime you ever need to do any tuning, you need a wideband.

Here's a pretty good article about turbo specs etc. that should help with your understanding of A/R
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/t...tm#A/R%20ratio

I want to hear how turn-signal-intakes will "add cooling."

I'd also like to hear "the way you know the oil cooler should be."

moot

Why are you trying to give people advice on turbo's and charging when you aren't even turboed yourself? What makes you an expert? Next your going to start talking about using NOS and a O2 injector with an igniter to spool your turbo(that you don't have!!) prior to load right? Lets all make our turbos jet engines like on Youtube. Piece of advice bro. Find some where else to add your info to people who will believe you and blow up their shit. Right now your pissin in the wind. Tuck your tail and go home BOY!

OK the first rule about not being a newb trust yourself to accomplish something and then do it. This is why hustler will always be a newb to us. You seem to have read and understood the information. Now imo go forth with your best effort and see what you end up with. All the pertinent shit is there seeing how you deal with the grey areas is what will diferentiate you from a newb or not.

Fail!!!!!

The 2560 will give fast boost. and will drive fine on the highway at 80 or 90. As will the 2554.

Personally, I like the 2560 or larger. I don't care for the 2554.

Fast spool is over rated. The stock miata doesn't kick in till 4500. And if your racing your never going to be under 4000 rpms anyway.

And any turbo from 2554 up, with siqnificant boost will be a light switch.

But in my opinion go 2560 or larger.

Wow sorry for even trying to contribute to this thread. I think if you look at my advice, there actually is some sense in it. Copying people that have had success turbo'ing there cars is probably the best advice I can think of, I wish I did that earlier on. But hey, it's obvious everything I say from now on is going to be completely pointless, as you'll probably just dig through my 900 posts and find something else to quote from over a year ago...

Thanks.

LOL Not you man!! Noob that started the post on turn signal intakes. This new guy hasn't even given an intro. Also he isn't even turbo!!! Your good Dustinb. I don't knows much, but ones the things I's knows is, " If you ain't got a turbo, DON"T GIVE OTHERS ADVICE ON TURBOCHARGING!!!." Oh fyi dustineb, you gave me good advice in the past. Keep it up yo!

You could have put all that in one question: "Hey can someone build my car for me?". I don't want to sound like a dick(ok maybe I do:giggle:) but I have over 300 posts and have yet to ask a question in this forum.

Why you ask, well, I'll tell you.Because all the answers you seek are in this forum all you have to do is put in a little effort and DO A FUCKING SEARCH!!!:facepalm:

Just because Obama got elected doesn't mean there's a search entitlement coming down the pipe. You still have to search for yourself. This is a no spoon feeding zone!

Seconding the idea that you dont need to worry about highway cruise. Let me add a bit of personal experience. One of my old setups was a 2.4L engine, with a 16G turbo. A 16G will spool well on a 1.6L BP. It spooled incredibly fast on my 2.4L, especially with an exhuast that you could litteraly drop a tennis ball into at the DP opening, and it would roll out the muffler a moment later. On more or less level ground. I drove the car about 70 miles a day, on roads from about 45 MPH to over 70, in temperatures ranging from about freezing to well past 115F. Always docile and a terrific feel to have bost right there, but not always boosting.

I cruised at about 2 InHg at 65-75 MPH. Keep in mind that that turbo was OEM equipment on cars where throttle response was key, and those cars had low flow exhausts and 2L powerplants. And still no problems. I got 27 MPG like clockwork in a 3000 LB car.

Moral of the story is that if that setup would cruise without boost, ANY turbo setup can cruise without boost short of a 6ish L TD truck with stock turbo(s).

In terms of the desire for lightswitch boost and something in the 230WHP range. A 2560 with either a .64 or larger AR turbine housing will make that power easaly, but frankly they are advanced to a point where the boost will build progressivly at low RPMs. IN fact on a highway pull in 3rd or 4th or 5th gear, just about any turbo will actually hit pretty progressively unless you revive some nice mid 90s large frame turbo tech. In which case you will also be breaking rods and transmissions and be way past 230WHP. This is actually a good thing (the progressive boost) because as said earlier, the car will still be perfectly docile at low RPM and cruise.

However, since you dont seem to want boost down low, I recomend a large AR turbine housing. AR is basically a ratio of the diameters of the internal passages of a turbine housing. A low AR will create great velocity, as a small nozzle opeing will do, and thus have great spool and low boost threshold. A large AR will not have the velocity down low, and thus wont be as responsive, but it will flow better in the higher revs. Get a high AR turbine and that 230ish WHP is easier.

Get a log type manifold. It will have a higher boost threashold than a ram-horn style according to what I see on here.

16g spools awesome on a 1.6L OP go forth and pwn something and then report back.

Have you read maximum boost yet?

If yes=read it 4 more times then come back.

If no=Buy/beg/borrow/steal and read it 5 times.

help me with this, i'm not fluent in dickese yet.

I did not know this. Evidence that I need to read Corky's book.

point taken

Yes Sir.

I don't know that ts intakes will add cooling. I need to learn more to back up my idea that they will. Or they don't at all.

This comment led me to a heated discussion with a girl named Hyper, and Joe Perez wrote:

"I would not remove the factory oil cooler if I were you. In addition to the more obvious function (cooling the oil) it also serves to pre-heat the oil when it is cold. During warmup, the coolant comes up to normal temperature much more quickly than the oil does. By transferring heat from the coolant to the oil during this time, the oil will reach its optimum working viscosity sooner, reducing engine wear and increasing power. Believe it or not, having your oil too cold is actually a bad thing. Cold, thick oil has a much higher coefficient of friction than warm oil (it’s a poorer lubricant) and is much more susceptible to shear than warm oil as well. This is important not just for the life of your rings & bearings, but your cam / lifters and turbo as well. "

This could very well pertain to my car as well. Hustler, you said a lot without saying a lot.

A Pantara fan? Reminds me of "WALK ON HOME BOY"


No Shit!!!!!!!

I will read more, but you raise an interesting arguement for a larger unit. It seems most who had a small one, then went to a big one; are now quite happy with it. In a case where I would utilize two boost controllers, dd 200hp for the person who drives it to work whom I'm married to, and a big hp setting for Sat. night street fighting lessons.

Please don't be that way. You raise a good point. "Copying someone else who has had success" is what we do every time we buy a "kit". Don't be so sensetive. BTW, I like your car, and respect you for not being scared (like me) to just do it, and stop thinking about doing it.

I do have an intro thread you PUTZ. It appears as though you enjoy the exclamation point, too bad you can't find a comma.

You've never asked a question? Awesome. I shall forever hold you in high reguard, as you share with me great wisdom in this post.

Noob Auto Quote
"thanks man. everyone else are just a dick YO. jDm RuLez!"


I will order my copy on Monday. This should have been done the first time I read this advice, but my life if plagued with stupid moments.

That was a retort if I ever saw one. Wow!!! I swear I could feel myself getting getting older as I read that.

I got to give you props though, you took it all in stride. Way to take your licks like a man(gay pun intended). I think you may have a chance of survival. You may just be a :winner:.

Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, :drama::yippee::drama:

LOL this is great. Well give him credit for one thing. He can talk, but you can't build. If you don't have a turbo why are you giving advice? Also if you haven't noticed only people that have been here for a while give advice! Take me for example. I haven't proved myself yet, and I know it, but I've stayed out of everyones way and only asked legit questions!!! I know with time the people here will trust me and help me. You should have done the same rather then try to come out the gate giving half ass advice that is useless to most and gets you laughed at!!

LOL.

He basically acknowledged pretty much all of what was said in here. Certanly the least shitty newb-tech thread I have seen here, especially compared to the jackassery of the last couple weeks.

Taking advice while sending a bit of good-natured flack back = +1 for the OP IMHO.

Some thoughts
 

I am also looking for a turbo upgrade to my stock engine. 1.8 litre, 1994 Miata. In talking to a local turbo installer and Flyin Miata, the following comments have been said to me>

1. Don't get the TSI turn signal scoops as they increase air pressure in the wrong places. They look neat though.

2. The small turbo is really not much different than the regular one and you are likely just as well off with the regular one. Spool up is almost the same.

3. Some say to get dyno tuning and others say to do it slowly by trial and error.

The more I read, the more confusing it gets. I suspect the best approach is to work with a local turbo nut and listen to what they suggest. Also, beware of instructions that are not complete, or kits that require other things to be added. Time is money and custom fabrication is time consuming.

Any thoughts for me?

Just a fyi Bandit, you might start with an intro thread to de-noob yourself. If you are bandit.? Or are you Rocky64? HHMMMMMM.............

Good, read that shit before you boost your car. I just turbo'd my car and then read it. Now I am redoing everything because I see so much that I did wrong. I mean the car worked but it didn't work well. Also if you are going to use ms I would recommend getting it before you turbo the car so you can familiarize yourself with tuning your car before you start adding psi.

I'm an idiot fuck. I can't read. Where and when have I given advice, in my op, about a turbo, you donkey dick. You've regurgitated the same bullshit twice. You wanna hear me give advice about a turbo? Stop having sex with your dog, Turbo. How's that for advice. Hear some more...

Just who are you hoping reads this? Trying to impress the homeboys that you'll be a good bitch and know your place. If only they'll let you in? Ass kissery at its finest. Good thing you know how to stay out of "everyones way". Anyone who uses the word "legit" in an adult conversation, isn't.:loser:

What...did I miss a new coolant reroute thread, or something?:giggle: (That joke will make sense to you soon, Rocky.)

1) If this is real, props on not starting a entirely new thread.
2) An intro post is a good idea. Frankly people get really hung up on it here.
3) Worry about things like TSIs later. Its not even worth considering if you have not done all the real changes yet. It really wont make a huge diff eaither way at this point.
4) If possible drive some turboed cars and get a feeel for what you like. Also take a look at what you will do with the car. To this day I dont understand why people will ask questions about whats best, without considering what they plan to do. A car setup for say Silverstone is not neccesarily going to be ideal for AutoX. Personally, I dont mind some turbo lag, I find it very easy to stay in high revs when driving fast and then just any turbo within reason can be quite effective. Having said that, designations like 'the large one', 'the small one', and 'the normal one' are worse than useless. One of the said jckassery threads (two actually) in recent memory involved people asking about turbos with the only specs provided being something like "T3T4" or some AR references. Lame.

5) Dyno tune. Not using a dyno is fighting with one hand behind you back in terms of tuning. Go to a real operator, have them skip their usual bullshit about correction factors etc, and do a lot of tuning with the correct load factor. To do said tuning run a real management system, as outline in about 5000 places on this site. Not bandaids.

6) Did they sell a 1.8L MX-5 in the UK in 94? Your spelling screams UK....

I just completed my first reading of Maximum Boost. It will take a few more times for the info to really sink in, but something really hit me. My idea of a small turbo thats spools early, kinda "highly efficient"... In a Miata?

I'm such a :noob:

Take a look at what Mazda used. That little IHI is smaller than just about anything anyone considers putting on their car. Or the little K03s and K04s you see on the VW/Audi cars. Or the super-tiny little testicles they call turbos on the 335i.

The OEMs know that the big trend right now is huge TQ down low, even at the expense of power over 5K. It make hair-dressers feel enabled and stupid guys who think low-end TQ wins races will then convince their enabled hair-dresser partners to let them buy one.

One thing that book does a great job of is pointing out that its up the user. You can run a teeny turbo, and it will feel fast. Or you can size it properly and it will be slightly, irellevantly less torquey down low, but be much much better everywhere else and a helluva lot more fun. This is why a 2560 or 2860 is probably great for like 75% of the people who will turbo a Miata. Very good down low but still has enough for 2XXWHP easaly and with proper support wont have TQ falling like a rock in the upper revs either.

Have you read Maximum Boost by Corky Bell? Its a good read for a turbo newbie.

In short, living in Texas I did have to do cooling mods to get my 200rwhp FM front mounted intercooler car to run cool enough in the summer heat. I did Spal fans, oil cooler, and upgraded radiator without doing any coolant reroute or deleting the AC. Either way you can probably do that stuff after the fact. IIRC Tennessee gets pretty hot too.

I do recommend your approach of doing the clutch and getting your electronics and fuel in working and yourself familiarized before installing the turbo.

Pickup that book, its a good read.

No way. What is this 'Maximum Boost' you speak of?

Wait, Corky Bell wrote a book on turbocharging? When did this happen? I'll have to get a copy and read it.
Wait, Corky Bell wrote a book on turbocharging? When did this happen? I'll have to get a copy and read it.


Everything is always brand new to me...even the 12th time...

Oi the sarcasm is thick on this board :P

Omg I cant belive Ive missed this thread.

I will start by saying CONGRATU-FUCKINGLA-TIONS!
Maximum boost is a great book for the noobiest of all noobs. If your extent of turbocharging knowledge is what is in that book then you have a LOT to learn.
;)

The noobs who have bothered to read Maximum Boost are much more prepared to proceed and are far more welcome here than those who have not.

C'mon, Boogie. Let's hear your encouraging/supportive voice.:)

Boogie gets a pass on this one... he lives in Freakville (a handicap in any social circle). He might even live on the Westside or worse yet, Regency. That place (jax) has some nice parts, like I-95 northbound past Airport Rd, or anyplace at the beach east of First St. And if there is any chance at all he fights traffic on Atlantic or Beach Blvd, he needs our prayers.

i can haz dis maximum boost? dat wud b mad tyte yo