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Old 04-30-2010, 09:33 PM   #1
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Post Turbos for Dummies (aka noobs)

Let the ridicule begin….

In this thread, I hope to merge many clashing ideas in my head, learn a bit about the anatomy of a turbocharger and narrow down my choice for an appropriate turbo for my application and expected use.

Allow me to get a few particulars out of the way.
The plan. (pre-turbo installation, in no logical order)(if you’re a noob, write this part down)
Mspnp
Remote oil filter and oil cooler
Turn signal air intakes
Coolant reroute
Clutch
Ac/ps delete
Injectors (sized by hp goal+)

I believe: If I have these things accomplished, and I’m aquainted with MS, I should be ready for boost.

I like the idea of a small, fast spooling turbo as long as I can go down the highway at 65mph in 5th gear without being in heavy boost. If that sounds oxymoron, consider the source. If I must go with a bigger unit, to stay out of boost while on the highway at legal speeds, I want low/no boost until 3500 to 4000, then “The Lightswitch of Death” boost. In either case, I want switch-able bc from mild 185 to 200hp dd form to 225 to 235hp check out my tail-lights boost. In summary, I want the tourque of a small efficient unit (as long as its durable at sustained hiway speeds) over the instant on, high hp#, look at my swell, big unit. (but the big unit has its advantages) hp goal of 200 to 225 dd bulletproof setup. Sustainability will not be an afterthought.

As I read, numbers are thrown around that pertain to housing size, exhaust side and intake side. Trim, which I’m sure is referring to the impeller on each side. Internal wastegates, and how they work better with a divorced dp, and external wastegates, often helpful in the case of two separate boost levels. And, wheather or not its water cooled. As much as I read, I still can’t wrap my head around these properties:
.48 A/R
AR48, 50 trim AR60
This helps a little: GT 2860RS with the 0.64 turbine offers faster turbo spooling
GT2860RS with the 0.80 turbine is great for top end power levels

Is it important for me to know what the values are proposing? Or is it like a Mona Lisa, where as, I cant paint one, but I know it when I see it? Just ask one that knows, and move on??? Care to give a quick lesson? I understand that so many more parts will affect spool, other than the turbo, so lets assume I’ll do my homework on those parts also. Before they get installed. Additionally, what about water cooled compared to oil only? Is the oil only disadvantage a big hit to take? Finally, I found the time period, here at MT, when the v-band started to become prevalent.(it wasn’t trusted by all or popular in that transition period) Why does one guy want one, whereas the next wants a 5 bolt? Will either effect wastegate options?

In closing… I’m still lost, and as I read many of the noobs before me, ask stupid questions, without doing their homework… I’m successful at asking stupid questions even after I’ve done my homework.
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Old 04-30-2010, 11:28 PM   #2
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wheres the obligitory GTFO?
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Old 04-30-2010, 11:46 PM   #3
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Oh sorry-gtfo.
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:08 AM   #4
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tl;dr
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:36 AM   #5
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hmmm..... idk if you know but you wont see boost unless then engine is under load. With that said

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Old 05-01-2010, 12:45 AM   #6
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It sounds like you're over thinking this. The whole "turn signal intakes, ps delete, coolant reroute, etc etc" are moot points. You can turbo your car without all that. It sounds like the best thing for you is to go and look at a bunch of dyno threads, see which powerband you want, look at what they have, and then copy.

Last edited by dustinb; 05-01-2010 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 05-01-2010, 09:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dustinb View Post
It sounds like you're over thinking this. The whole "turn signal intakes, ps delete, coolant reroute, etc etc" are mute points. You can turbo your car without all that. It sounds like the best thing for you is to go and look at a bunch of dyno threads, see which powerband you want, look at what they have, and then copy.
This is odd to me. The MT boys hold a clinic on a daily basis. A self help clinic for the reading and planning impaired. I dont fit in that category. If you must come up with a new category to blast my *** for stupidity(over thinking), you need to do better than that. Thats ******* weak.

I want my Miata ready for boost MY way. I want the added room of a ps/ac delete. I want the added cooling of turn signal intakes. It may be a moot(english is complex, I know) point to you, but to me its the right way. Why should I not plan for success. BTW, I'm not going to copy someones setup when I don't understand it. I'm going to MS. Dyno. Injectors. AC/PS delete. Dyno. Get my oil cooler the way I know it should be. Make the oil filter "easy access, baby" ect. ect. ect...clutch, wideband, tps, COP, then boost. I'm a stupid ******* NOOB. (moneyshot quote)

If you don't know the answers to the questions I posed, then cuss me, call me a stupid noob, and kiss my ***, 'cause you probably dont know ****, except- how to copy. While we're at it. I have read quite a few dyno threads, and Brains 4th gear pull thread (I like Jay's plot)- the only good advise you gave. I also like Hustler's tenacity to get it right and do it his way, but I'm not gonna ride his jock long, he's a *****!

If you wanna dig in my *** for something.... I'm longwinded. Go back, and reread my op and think of the 15 idiots Brain knows with blown boosted motors, and try it again. I'll gladly humble myself to idiot status if it means I get to learn about a turbo for my 5er. You win. You have boost.

also... (edit)
i read this before i started to overthink my plans...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustinb View Post
It's funny, I get about a 50/50 response on the flames. Half the people I talk to love them, the other half hate them. I respect everyone's opinions, but I did the exterior of my car for my benefit only. If people like it then awesome, if they don't, well that's cool to. One customer of mine who is a strange dude hates them, he went out one day and started peeling one side off. I was pretty angry.



Yah I simplified everything up top, but it was a combination of things. My wastegate reference wasn't working properly, and I boost spiked to 16lbs at 4500rpm. My intake air temp sensor was in a horrible spot, we had just fattened up the fuel curve a ton because the car was running super lean, and my air/water intercooler wasn't set up yet. The dyno was running of the wastegate reference, and it was only showing about 2 lbs of boost. The car had just sat for about 15 minutes to cool down, and we just did a quick run to see what was going on. I was watching my boost gauge inside the car while my boss monitored air/fuel, and then kaboom. So here's a list of the potentials:

Too much boost
Too hot of boost
Hot cylinder 4
Intake air temp sensor not measuring air properly
Small fuel line with 440 injectors, that were running really fat
... I'm sure there's more. The motor was also suspect as well. A year and a bit ago we tuned it in at 119.6, then 5 months ago we put it back on the dyno and I was only registering 94. We changed the plugs and I got up to 96, but still way low. Compression was good... so I started replacing thing with spare parts i had, did the toyota COP conversion, removed AFC, and never really got the power back. Decided to throw a turbo on and see what happened. Guess I found out

I figured I'd save some money and over think it.

Last edited by Rocky64; 05-01-2010 at 09:43 AM. Reason: ninja
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:47 AM   #8
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careful, this guy seems like he may have been trained by Joe Perez or the like...

At any rate, I can't fully answer your question as I still look things up...but i will give you props for homework/research, properly explaining yourself, and for properly fending off attacks.

You sir, have potential
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:33 AM   #9
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Ok.. well here's my contribution to your turbo knowledge. Your desire to cruise in 5th gear and be in vacuum really is a moot point. It doesn't matter how small the turbo is or how large it is. Whether you are in boost or not depends on engine load not rpm. At full throttle you are at full load on the engine and therefore you see full boost at some X rpm. However at cruise you are at a very low load on the engine and even at that X or higher rpm you will still not be in boost.

And just as an aside.. buy a wideband at the same you buy the MS. I'm still new to megasquirt, but anytime you ever need to do any tuning, you need a wideband.

Here's a pretty good article about turbo specs etc. that should help with your understanding of A/R
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/t...tm#A/R%20ratio
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky64 View Post
I want my Miata ready for boost MY way. I want the added room of a ps/ac delete. I want the added cooling of turn signal intakes.
I want to hear how turn-signal-intakes will "add cooling."

I'd also like to hear "the way you know the oil cooler should be."
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:51 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dustinb View Post
It sounds like you're over thinking this. The whole "turn signal intakes, ps delete, coolant reroute, etc etc" are mute points. You can turbo your car without all that. It sounds like the best thing for you is to go and look at a bunch of dyno threads, see which powerband you want, look at what they have, and then copy.
moot
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:21 PM   #12
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Why are you trying to give people advice on turbo's and charging when you aren't even turboed yourself? What makes you an expert? Next your going to start talking about using NOS and a O2 injector with an igniter to spool your turbo(that you don't have!!) prior to load right? Lets all make our turbos jet engines like on Youtube. Piece of advice bro. Find some where else to add your info to people who will believe you and blow up their ****. Right now your pissin in the wind. Tuck your tail and go home BOY!
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky64 View Post
This is odd to me. The MT boys hold a clinic on a daily basis. A self help clinic for the reading and planning impaired. I dont fit in that category. If you must come up with a new category to blast my *** for stupidity(over thinking), you need to do better than that. Thats ******* weak.

I want my Miata ready for boost MY way. I want the added room of a ps/ac delete. I want the added cooling of turn signal intakes. It may be a moot(english is complex, I know) point to you, but to me its the right way. Why should I not plan for success. BTW, I'm not going to copy someones setup when I don't understand it. I'm going to MS. Dyno. Injectors. AC/PS delete. Dyno. Get my oil cooler the way I know it should be. Make the oil filter "easy access, baby" ect. ect. ect...clutch, wideband, tps, COP, then boost. I'm a stupid ******* NOOB. (moneyshot quote)

If you don't know the answers to the questions I posed, then cuss me, call me a stupid noob, and kiss my ***, 'cause you probably dont know ****, except- how to copy. While we're at it. I have read quite a few dyno threads, and Brains 4th gear pull thread (I like Jay's plot)- the only good advise you gave. I also like Hustler's tenacity to get it right and do it his way, but I'm not gonna ride his jock long, he's a *****!

If you wanna dig in my *** for something.... I'm longwinded. Go back, and reread my op and think of the 15 idiots Brain knows with blown boosted motors, and try it again. I'll gladly humble myself to idiot status if it means I get to learn about a turbo for my 5er. You win. You have boost.

also... (edit)
i read this before i started to overthink my plans...




I figured I'd save some money and over think it.
OK the first rule about not being a newb trust yourself to accomplish something and then do it. This is why hustler will always be a newb to us. You seem to have read and understood the information. Now imo go forth with your best effort and see what you end up with. All the pertinent **** is there seeing how you deal with the grey areas is what will diferentiate you from a newb or not.
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:25 PM   #14
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Fail!!!!!
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:26 PM   #15
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The 2560 will give fast boost. and will drive fine on the highway at 80 or 90. As will the 2554.

Personally, I like the 2560 or larger. I don't care for the 2554.

Fast spool is over rated. The stock miata doesn't kick in till 4500. And if your racing your never going to be under 4000 rpms anyway.

And any turbo from 2554 up, with siqnificant boost will be a light switch.

But in my opinion go 2560 or larger.
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:48 PM   #16
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Wow sorry for even trying to contribute to this thread. I think if you look at my advice, there actually is some sense in it. Copying people that have had success turbo'ing there cars is probably the best advice I can think of, I wish I did that earlier on. But hey, it's obvious everything I say from now on is going to be completely pointless, as you'll probably just dig through my 900 posts and find something else to quote from over a year ago...
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:50 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
moot
Thanks.
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Old 05-01-2010, 01:15 PM   #18
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LOL Not you man!! Noob that started the post on turn signal intakes. This new guy hasn't even given an intro. Also he isn't even turbo!!! Your good Dustinb. I don't knows much, but ones the things I's knows is, " If you ain't got a turbo, DON"T GIVE OTHERS ADVICE ON TURBOCHARGING!!!." Oh fyi dustineb, you gave me good advice in the past. Keep it up yo!

Last edited by Myspeed123; 05-01-2010 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 05-01-2010, 02:33 PM   #19
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You could have put all that in one question: "Hey can someone build my car for me?". I don't want to sound like a dick(ok maybe I do) but I have over 300 posts and have yet to ask a question in this forum.

Why you ask, well, I'll tell you.Because all the answers you seek are in this forum all you have to do is put in a little effort and DO A ******* SEARCH!!!

Just because Obama got elected doesn't mean there's a search entitlement coming down the pipe. You still have to search for yourself. This is a no spoon feeding zone!
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Old 05-01-2010, 06:00 PM   #20
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Seconding the idea that you dont need to worry about highway cruise. Let me add a bit of personal experience. One of my old setups was a 2.4L engine, with a 16G turbo. A 16G will spool well on a 1.6L BP. It spooled incredibly fast on my 2.4L, especially with an exhuast that you could litteraly drop a tennis ball into at the DP opening, and it would roll out the muffler a moment later. On more or less level ground. I drove the car about 70 miles a day, on roads from about 45 MPH to over 70, in temperatures ranging from about freezing to well past 115F. Always docile and a terrific feel to have bost right there, but not always boosting.

I cruised at about 2 InHg at 65-75 MPH. Keep in mind that that turbo was OEM equipment on cars where throttle response was key, and those cars had low flow exhausts and 2L powerplants. And still no problems. I got 27 MPG like clockwork in a 3000 LB car.

Moral of the story is that if that setup would cruise without boost, ANY turbo setup can cruise without boost short of a 6ish L TD truck with stock turbo(s).

In terms of the desire for lightswitch boost and something in the 230WHP range. A 2560 with either a .64 or larger AR turbine housing will make that power easaly, but frankly they are advanced to a point where the boost will build progressivly at low RPMs. IN fact on a highway pull in 3rd or 4th or 5th gear, just about any turbo will actually hit pretty progressively unless you revive some nice mid 90s large frame turbo tech. In which case you will also be breaking rods and transmissions and be way past 230WHP. This is actually a good thing (the progressive boost) because as said earlier, the car will still be perfectly docile at low RPM and cruise.

However, since you dont seem to want boost down low, I recomend a large AR turbine housing. AR is basically a ratio of the diameters of the internal passages of a turbine housing. A low AR will create great velocity, as a small nozzle opeing will do, and thus have great spool and low boost threshold. A large AR will not have the velocity down low, and thus wont be as responsive, but it will flow better in the higher revs. Get a high AR turbine and that 230ish WHP is easier.

Get a log type manifold. It will have a higher boost threashold than a ram-horn style according to what I see on here.
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