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Twincharged..
Any twincharged miata's around?
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this begs the question: WHY?
not only would it cost a shitload of money, but with a small turbo like the t25 and the miata being as light as it is, lag is pretty much minimal. |
Well the main purpose of a twin charged setup isn't to give you that worthless extra grunt at 1500 R.P.M. It’s really to make sure you're 1.8L engine can spool a T-67 by 4000 R.P.M. Think about it. Mustangs make about 200 WHP stock. With a decent supercharger on the Miata you can do the same, so that produces about the same airflow and same spool-ability as a mustang. I guess you can do it with a nitrous shot too, but the car is complete crap when it’s not laughing. Throttle response is also incredible with a system like this, and I guess if your grandma that extra at 1500 can't hurt.
By twin charge I was speaking of more the bypass supercharger when turbo comes online and the supercharger is electrically clutched to disengage type. So it wouldn't be compressor to compressor feeding all the time just when the pressure upstream of the supercharger was below a certain amount. Kind of like VTEC for Forced induction. |
oh boy....!!
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I get what you're saying, but still dont see the point of something like that. main reason is that its not that pracical, and would cost a shitload of money. Hell, you could just throw a ls1 in a miata, it would cost about the same, and have the low end grunt and topend pull........and more than enough power/torque to keep you from falling asleep at the wheel....or you could build up the 4 banger and throw a good turbo on there and still have good power with decent spool...any which way you put it, a twincharged setup is expensive, complicated, and generally not worthwhile...simply put: stupid
now if you are stating this simply because you're bored and want to talk about something "different" no matter how bizzare/pointless, thats a whole other topic. in that case id tell you that this thread is stupid and politely leave :) |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 284917)
I get what you're saying, but still dont see the point of something like that. main reason is that its not that pracical, and would cost a shitload of money. Hell, you could just throw a ls1 in a miata, it would cost about the same, and have the low end grunt and topend pull........and more than enough power/torque to keep you from falling asleep at the wheel....or you could build up the 4 banger and throw a good turbo on there and still have good power with decent spool...any which way you put it, a twincharged setup is expensive, complicated, and generally not worthwhile...simply put: stupid
now if you are stating this simply because you're bored and want to talk about something "different" no matter how bizzare/pointless, thats a whole other topic. in that case id tell you that this thread is stupid and politely leave :) Opinions are just like a__holes everyones got one. :giggle: The reason I am never in favor of V8's is because I generally hate V8's. Something about the little engine that could that just makes me love 4 cylinders. This is a way to genuinely amplify the power of a 4 cylinder by using huge a/r's or in general huge turbo's and greatly increase output, recoverability, driveability, and put yourself at a serious weight advantage and packaging simplicity over a V8. Really the most expensive part is the standalone, once you get that, the rest is just tinkertime, because you're not going to find a company stupid enough to try to make one. So cost isn't really an issue, in setting out on a project like this, I would assume you'd know how to design one, build it and install it. |
I think nothing compares to the sound of a healthy V-8. I actually hate 4 cylinders, cause most 4 banged cars are wrong wheel drive, and people put gay shit on them like air intakes and fart cans and then think they're fast. The reason is drive a miata is cause it's light, cheap, and there are a thousand different things you can do to them. The 4 cylinder in my car can be upgraded in many ways to push my little go cart of a car to unheard of 1/4 times, meaning, I could spank V-8 cars like it's a sick joke. I don't care what anybody argues, but the only reason you can make a miata fast with the 4 cylinder in it, is cause of weight. I like your thinking though, cause I too am the kind of person that is into doing something different than anybody else. I must say, there comes a time in that where you have to just say, "how about I forget about being creative and just do something similar, but not." Basically what I am saying is, get your standalone, build a block, put a T3/T4 hybrid on there, and run 350whp. The lag time shouldn't be that much of a set back. You have to know what you want the car to do, and what the car is designed for. Miata engines were designed to make peak power at like 6400 RPM?? So don't try to change the design and make peak HP at 3000. Let it spool and your appetite for power will be fed.
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It's been done... Coldside supercharger with turbo.
Seen the video too, spool was amazing fast but difficult to control the boost level. http://www.cardomain.com/ride/329157 |
Thats what I was looking for. I wasn't really looking to argue it. I just wanted to see other peoples kits. That torque curve is amazingly thick, and Its gaurunteed the 2-3 shift benifits alot if it doesn't go sideways.
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So basically, the idea is to spool a large turbo with the Supercharger, if I'm reading this right. ...but if better spool on a big turbo is all you're after, nitrous can do that (they sell kits specifically made for spooling a turbo and then stopping) and once the turbo comes online, you won't have the restriction the dead super would impose. (or the complexity of bypassing it)
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why don't you stop posting here so I don't have to rape your face?
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Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 284912)
Throttle response is also incredible with a system like this, and I guess if your grandma that extra at 1500 can't hurt.
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Well alot of that has got to do with how they design it. You're still limited by the speed of sound on throttle tip in, but it should gain in revs alot faster once air gets to the port. I guess the best setup would be ITB's with a supercharger and a turbocharger. :giggle: Good throttle crack response, constant boost available so rocketing revs, and a turbo to take over in top end. It'd be funny to hear a guy mouth off that setup. I've got an supercharged, turbocharged, ITB miata NOW WTF IS UP??? :bowrofl:
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I have a V8 swapped Miata with a roots blower, ITBs, two turbos under the trunk, a 300-shot of NOS, and Darude's "Sandstorm" on repeat in the CD player.
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Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 285226)
I've got an supercharged, turbocharged, ITB miata NOW WTF IS UP??? :bowrofl:
so combine them all and stfu |
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Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 285297)
so combine them all and stfu
Its just conversation. Its not very often you find a forum with people bright enough to talk about it. I never understood the TT miata's there is only so much exhaust gas energy you can get ahold of. |
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 285400)
Who pissed in your lemonaid? :bang:
And you don't pay very much attention around here do you? If you did that comment shouldn't have suprised you at all. |
I'm a newb I've got 21 posts ;)
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Just put a turbo on it.
(this is coming from a SC nazi) Seriously. If you've never FI'd a car before, just turbo it. You have too much to learn to try to start big. Here I am never turbo'd a car before and I'm trying to put a pair of twin screws on a miata. Shit is hard as hell to fit and it's waaaaaay waaaaay WAAAAY too much work. I didn't think the worst case scenario would be this bad. Sure it will be neat when it's done, but if I didn't have all this time, research, work, calculations, and talk in the SC project, I'd be ordering a turbo and manifold. |
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 285226)
Well alot of that has got to do with how they design it. You're still limited by the speed of sound on throttle tip in, but it should gain in revs alot faster once air gets to the port. I guess the best setup would be ITB's with a supercharger and a turbocharger. :giggle: Good throttle crack response, constant boost available so rocketing revs, and a turbo to take over in top end. It'd be funny to hear a guy mouth off that setup. I've got an supercharged, turbocharged, ITB miata NOW WTF IS UP??? :bowrofl:
Back in the real world though, people like us drive miata's. They are a cheap/affordable fun little car and the best part of making them quicker/faster is that it costs little and you get alot of fun for your dollar. Thats it. Sure some go all out and nuts with crazy setups, but most of those people are either sponsored racers, or power junkies with lots of money and time on their hands, and love to custom fab parts to their cars. Does twincharging work? sure......Is it badass? sure on some level. But its been proven like 100000 times that its not practical, because at the end of the day a guy with a big turbo/built engine or a v8 will still be right next to you down the track and your "instant throttle response" wont help you for shit. That is beside the fact that you can only hook so much power to the ground, and the chassis will only take so much torque before you have to pretty much re-engineer the whole car to handle more. in summary: your topic fails good day to you sir:noob: |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 285438)
Now I get it. You are a 15yo kid in high school dreaming about fast cars and just want to discuss completely "money is no option" ridiculous unpractical setups. In that case why stop at miata? Hell, go big or go home: why not stuff a v12 in there, twin supercharge it, quadruple turbocharge it, and throw "2 big ones" in the trunk? Sounds pretty fucking ridiculous huh? "Id like somebody to mouth off to that setup":eek5:
Back in the real world though, people like us drive miata's. They are a cheap/affordable fun little car and the best part of making them quicker/faster is that it costs little and you get alot of fun for your dollar. Thats it. Sure some go all out and nuts with crazy setups, but most of those people are either sponsored racers, or power junkies with lots of money and time on their hands, and love to custom fab parts to their cars. Does twincharging work? sure......Is it badass? sure on some level. But its been proven like 100000 times that its not practical, because at the end of the day a guy with a big turbo/built engine or a v8 will still be right next to you down the track and your "instant throttle response" wont help you for shit. That is beside the fact that you can only hook so much power to the ground, and the chassis will only take so much torque before you have to pretty much re-engineer the whole car to handle more. in summary: your topic fails good day to you sir:noob: Actaully I said itd be funny to hear someone mouth it off, because its so rediculous to have that many different systems combined into one. I'm not 15 I'm 24, I'm also an aerospace engineer who does this stuff in his spare time. I'm the only vendor of adaptronic E.C.U's in north america, and I engineer all my own components. I wasn't really contemplating on a hearing of the twincharged setups or even debating them. I just wanted to see the other twin charged setups... I don't quite know why all this is so hostile. Jeeze I just wanted to see who had them and what their plots looked like. |
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 285400)
Who pissed in your lemonade? :bang:
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Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 285447)
??
Actaully I said itd be funny to hear someone mouth it off, because its so rediculous to have that many different systems combined into one. I'm not 15 I'm 24, I'm also an aerospace engineer who does this stuff in his spare time. I'm the only vendor of adaptronic E.C.U's in north america, and I engineer all my own components. I wasn't really contemplating on a hearing of the twincharged setups or even debating them. I just wanted to see the other twin charged setups... I don't quite know why all this is so hostile. Jeeze I just wanted to see who had them and what their plots looked like. well I dont know of any twincharged miata setups, but at least now you know my thoughts on it :D |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 285449)
close, I drink limeade...and apple cider.
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A kid once pee'ed in my teachers coffie. The teacher knew it tasted funny and drank it anyway. For real.:crx:
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1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by johndoe
(Post 285466)
i drank a gallon of cider (literally) yesterday, right out of the jug, and yes limeade is far better than lemonade:dancegay:
Ps: Isn't this where the thread supposed to stray into girly pictures. Enjoy!:bowrofl: |
I think twincharging is a good concept if you can control and smooth out the transition between SC and turbo. We may see more of this as engines get smaller and smaller.
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Originally Posted by Wittyfull
(Post 285519)
I think twincharging is a good concept if you can control and smooth out the transition between SC and turbo. We may see more of this as engines get smaller and smaller.
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Originally Posted by Toddcod
(Post 285485)
Ps: Isn't this where the thread supposed to stray into girly pictures. Enjoy!:bowrofl: Attachment 212323 or at least Attachment 212324 |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 285438)
why not stuff a v12 in there, twin supercharge it, quadruple turbocharge it, and throw "2 big ones" in the trunk? Sounds pretty fucking ridiculous huh? "Id like somebody to mouth off to that setup":eek5:
Well, someone is at least doing the V12 part.:)http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...highlight=v-12 |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 285544)
I highly doubt it....and engines are not getting smaller...look at all the 6.1L srt8's driving around
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Originally Posted by Wittyfull
(Post 285620)
Maybe in your gated suburban community and archaic Chrysler, but not the rest of the world. :)
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Originally Posted by Wittyfull
(Post 285519)
I think twincharging is a good concept if you can control and smooth out the transition between SC and turbo. We may see more of this as engines get smaller and smaller.
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Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 285684)
or simply sequential turbos....cough335icough...
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Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 285684)
or simply sequential turbos....cough335icough...
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The 335i turbo system is not a sequential system. Each turbo is supplied by 3 cylinders.
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whatever, either way.... just chose the right sized turbos....
here... I'm thinking of the 3.0L diesel: http://us1.webpublications.com.au/st...5/2544_4mg.jpg 1. At low engine speeds the intake air flows through the large turbocharger and is compressed in the smaller turbocharger. This supplies substantial amounts of air to the power unit, starting without any appreciable delay at idle speed. The 3.0 litre inline six-cylinder diesel develops 530 Nm of torque at as early as 1,500 rpm. 2. With increasing engine speed, the larger turbocharger becomes more important - initially as a pre-compressor. The intake air is additionally highly compressed inside the small turbocharger, the engine reaching its maximum torque of 560 Nm at 2,000 rpm. By means of a turbine control valve, the flow of exhaust air is variably distributed to both turbochargers, regulating their interaction. 3. At high engine speeds work is done primarily by the large turbocharger, the power unit reaching a maximum output of 200 kW/272 bhp at 4,400 rpm. |
Originally Posted by Stein
(Post 285601)
Well, someone is at least doing the V12 part.:)http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...highlight=v-12
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Maybe I should install a supercharger because my power down low sucks.
and i have no top end. |
omgz you should get a "turbonator" :bowrofl:
power ANDDDDDD mpg increase |
I'll do a sequential turbo kit like the one Braineak posted if someone want's to pay for it. I have most of the CAD models done on the manifolds, etc.
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blah, I sent my head off to get treatment from a computer measurement machine this week. I'm working up manifolds on both sides of the block. This is for sure, neither side of my engine supports a supercharger my goals are a little modest for that. That is an intiguing sequential setup though.
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Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 285447)
??
Actaully I said itd be funny to hear someone mouth it off, because its so rediculous to have that many different systems combined into one. I'm not 15 I'm 24, I'm also an aerospace engineer who does this stuff in his spare time. I'm the only vendor of adaptronic E.C.U's in north america, and I engineer all my own components. I wasn't really contemplating on a hearing of the twincharged setups or even debating them. I just wanted to see the other twin charged setups... I don't quite know why all this is so hostile. Jeeze I just wanted to see who had them and what their plots looked like. |
:bowrofl:
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Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 286544)
blah, I sent my head off to get treatment from a computer measurement machine this week.
Unless you are just digitizing the flanges... |
Originally Posted by TurboTim
(Post 286728)
You'll find it sucks compared to most other japanese ports.
Unless you are just digitizing the flanges... I just wanted to digitize the flanges, but he said he'd be willing to cut one open. I have one cylinder lapped and ground for airflow testing. I've got an ITB kit I've been putting together and I wanted to play with that entry angle. I can't believe the stock manifold comes in flat to the head. It makes no sense. Have you done any research playing with it? |
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 286744)
Have you done any research playing with it?
I don't have the desire to make a fancy head, and if I did, I'd make one, use it, and move on. |
why did you come to miataturbo.net to talk about superchargers? You should go here: www.superchargedmiata.com
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 286800)
why did you come to miataturbo.net to talk about superchargers? You should go here: www.superchargedmiata.com
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It does excite him....that's why he is "so" pissed off.
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 286800)
why did you come to miataturbo.net to talk about superchargers? You should go here: www.superchargedmiata.com
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Originally Posted by paul
(Post 286075)
Maybe I should install a supercharger because my power down low sucks.
and i have no top end. exactly. n00b. |
Originally Posted by Wittyfull
(Post 286822)
Don't click on the link. It points to some other site. My email notification showed the true site. What's the deal? Turbocharging and supercharging are both forced induction. Open your mind and let knowledge flow in.
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trannys are always funny. :D
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 287096)
come on, what's wrong with a little "trannysurprise.com?"
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 287096)
come on, what's wrong with a little "trannysurprise.com?"
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If we're talking about ridiculous setups, I've contemplated twin turboing my ITB setup. I figure if I rebuilt my motor with a ported head I may get enough flow to spool two small turbos alright. I'd do it totally ridiculous too, two seperated intercoolers, and each turbo would feed two ITB runners. That may actually happen too, depending on how much money I have when my stock motor goes pop.
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Originally Posted by Wittyfull
(Post 285519)
I think twincharging is a good concept if you can control and smooth out the transition between SC and turbo. We may see more of this as engines get smaller and smaller.
Some technical data although in German) http://www.volkswagen.de/vwcms_publi...tail.0.10.html 170 bhp, torque 240 NM from 1750-5000 rpm, 7,3 l/100km (I'm sorry i dont know how many mpg this is) And if it is build for Germay - it has to be completly reliable even for long full speed runs at the Autobahn. So, I would love to have such an engine in my Miata... (Or better the 2.0 TFSI...) What I would like to say - it sure is possible, but you need a lot of engineering and money and experience and..... to get it running reliable and strong and with a sensible behaviour. (Volkswagen can manage this - but for DIY... I don't know.) Greets |
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