Why doesn't Garrett or Borg make these for tuner applications?
 

http://press.porsche.com/news/release.php?id=333

Like the article says, these have been used since the early 1990's.....WTF dont we have them yet? Instant Torque/spool FTW For now there is no compromise, big power, big lag :facepalm:

Well seeing as how the article states that the turbo temperature problem was only solved in 2007 while working with porsche I would imagine it is a patented design that is hard to copy without infringement. My second guess would be that the materials would be cost prohibitive for most tuners and the limited run was judged to costly for profit

I've seen these but if a company like Garrett or BW could make them I think it would bring down prices quite a bit......and this totally disproves Ryan's theory of patents or whatever.

We do. You can buy a Borg-Warner BV50 (the 997TT turbo) from Borg today.

http://www.full-race.com/store/turbo...vtg-turbo.html

They cost just a little over five thousand dollars each.

Still interested?

Actually, maybe but it doesn't look like one would flow enough for what I'm looking for. :vash:

I cant find much detailed info on them I see where it looks like together they both flow ~530 HP but is that indivdually or both together? You know of any reliabilty issues with these(certain amount of miles they typically last) or are they as good or better than your typical BW or Garrett?

Time to start scoping out the junkyards......

Have you looked at the Cummings VGT Turbo?

http://cumminsengines.com/every/misc...ier_4_vgt.page

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Few tuner shops can tune timing.

What makes you think they would be auccesful at VGT?

Wow, these look great. I just called the local Cummins dealer, got transfered between parts and service 8 times, literally, then left only to leave a voicemail. :facepalm: Not very impressive knowledge/customer service.

I've got a great tuner but I haven't ran this epiphany by him yet......I'm not saying this is a great/solid idea but if you could get full boost by 2500 rpms and make 600 whp would you say yes? ;)

No VGT diesel turbo is capable of withstanding the EGTs seen by gasoline engines. Diesel EGTs are 1200-1300*F max with short bursts to 1400*F on chipped trucks.

If you could hit a MAP at 2500rpm that happens to flow 650lb/min of air at redline...well, you'd need a different head at the least, lol. You're also highly likely to run into compressor surge because a variable geometry turbo is cool, but it's not going to give you that kind of output.

I just checked Ebay.. there are a few up for sale, both new and used...

Also a VGT for a Mitsu
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MD187211-MD1...ba9ca5&vxp=mtr

$700??

It may be a better fit for a sub 2.0l engine

Just a guess.. I have not looked into it

I have a HUGE Cummings VGT to bolt on something, just have not decided what yet.
My buds and I call it the Basketball turbo....

If what Savington said is true.....this still wont work? Designed for a Mitsubishi Shogun(Diesel). I'm also having a hard time finding out what kind of power these diesel turbos could make on a gasoline engine. I see they make some massive torque but low hp. I'm assuming I can't just take the torque number from the vehicle the turbo is designed and for and assume the same torque will be made on the BP:giggle:

Anyone have any diesel to petrol conversion experience?

Sav's already explained why it won't work, boo. May want to listen to the guy, he knows what he's talking about.

Look at the Holset turbos. Originally intended for diesel, but they make lots of power and spool really well in gasoline applications.

If this is true, why do so many people run Holset's?

Ha, ginx

Lol! Greater tolerance of heat vs VGT turbos.

First off, pet peeve:

Cummings is a poet (and probably a porn star, I didn't look that hard). Cummins is a power equipment manufacturer. :giggle:

Read what I actually wrote, please. I never said that no diesel turbo will work in a gas application. I said that no VGT diesel turbo will work in a gas application. There are people that do it, but nobody who road races or really abuses them (that I can find). I also know of no OEM that uses VGT turbos on gas engines (aside from Porsche at $5200 a pop).

It's very easy to figure out how much horsepower a diesel turbo will make on gas engine - it's about the same amount of horsepower the diesel turbo made on a diesel engine. Airflow is not magical.

According to Wikipedia, 3 manufacturers tried it in the late 80s and early 90s (Dodge/Shelby, Honda, and Peugeot). Nobody else was dumb enough to attempt it until Porsche in 2007, so that should give you a pretty good idea of the difficulty of making it work.

VGT Holset turbos? I don't know of anyone racing a car reliably with a Holset.

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....you never answered my question earlier about the flow of the 997 turbo? How much CFM will one flow?

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Actually, if 650 is the number thats between a GTX30 and GTX35......:drool:

lol @ 21psi on a GTX3582 and expecting to ever make that kind of power on a Miata:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1333487981...and doing it at 2500rpm as you said earlier.

Please stay out of my threads as you are dumb as fuk. When I said 650 CFM that's referring to peak flow. With a VGT a turbo that flows that much at peak power, could spool anywhere from 1-3 thousand rpms sooner than a traditional turbo depending on engine and powerband. Thats why I'm suggesting possible usage. As you see I'd like to make more than 200 whp like you, kthx. gby :hustler:

you really think a puny 1.8L is going to spin the turbine hard enough to rotate a 82mm wheel fast enough to make those rpms/flow levels before redline?

I guess you've never heard of the Acura RDX.....:giggle:

IIRC the RDX turbo just uses a flapper valve to reduce/increase flow...not quite VGT technology, more like VA/RT


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1333492507

Nothing I'm referring to has a 82mm compressor wheel.....I've been looking at the stock GT2 and 997 TT turbos and they look to be about the size of a GT28 or GT30 (7X compressor wheel) I can get one or two at a local Porsche tuner for a decent price. Considering these are the only turbo's intended for gasoline use, these are the only ones I would consider for track use. Currently my only issues are the actual size of the turbo. Will it be worth the trouble of using this turbo for possibily less power than my GTX3071? How much sooner will it actually spool? What are the vanes controlled by?(oil psi or electronicly) can my AEM be used to tune assuming they are controlled electronically? Will any tuner know wtf is going on and how to control it?

IMO I think one of the GT2/997 turbos would be best suited for someone in the 300-400 whp range. But I'm not rulin git out yet. More info/details to come tomorrow. If I pick up 2 would anyone be interested in the other?? They'll most likely only sell then in pairs because thats how they come.

nah i bet you could get just one. what if only one turbo needed replacing. and you need to make sure only to get the correctly oriented one.

Yea, I thought about that....couldn't you just clock the other one somehow to make it usable?

Update: Just got off the phone with Full Race.....said only the Porsche's ECU could control the vanes(electronically) and as far as he knew there was no standalone ECU compatable for vane control/tuning....

Probably has an integrated CAN controller just like the HE351VE.

At the core though, you're still pretty much just talking about a stepper motor. I know some people have taken apart the HE351 vane controller and wired uC based driver to it directly, so I'm sure something similar is possible with the porsche turbos.

Update: Just got off the phone with AEM tech and they dont make or have anything that can control the vanes.....

I would love to see this done but I'd also just like to get my car running so for now looks like I'll just stick with ole trusty 3071 and make 500 whp.....:-)

Anyone wanting to try I can get you a turbo, or 2

You're the one that said "target boost at 2500rpm" which is roughly 40lb/min and never going to happen. I'm also going to call Geoff and let him know that you're a huge pain in the ass and that he should probably tell his staff not to speak to you anymore.


260whp and there isn't enough horsepower in the world for you to ever keep up with me on a track. I also have a running, turbo Miata. Beat that.

Please, call and tell him to never talk to customer asking about Porsche products again......:rofl: I'm he'll listen to "Huster" the coolest cat on a bi+ch car forum....

Lol...don't break your back with that accelerator pedal. I'm in a build here, dont worry, it'll be done soon enough and yes, it will be faster than your $hit box, in every way. ;)

Why are you so concerned with my car again? You talk a lot of ---- about it but you fail to realize that it's a fast car, its reliable, and you'll probably incorporate something that I learned along the way that will save you money. Next time, instead of being an insolent ----, maybe consider the contributions some people make to this forum and that you might use some of our lessons learned the first time, and never realize the financial and time sacrifices of those who came before you.

Sweetie, you are ---- talking a guy with a running turbo Miata, when all you've got is hope and dreams.

Hell, even I've got a running turbo Miata which is a set of trials and tribulations unique to itself. Untill the day you get a running, reliable turbo Miata going, you may want to tone the ---- talking down a bit.

The same reason you go on a tangent and talk $hit in random threads that have no relevane to the topic at hand.

My posts in this thread were 100% relevant, most of the other threads there is a "relevance factor".

You've got the order wrong bro.

Post results, then talk trash. It's not talk trash, then post results.

Relax bro, he's busy masquerading as a Porsche owner on the phone.

Its way more fun the second way, given one rule, that you can actually produce results

Has anyone on here claiming to want/need to produce 500-600rwhp ever produced results after talking trash?

No.

Back on topic.
Our stock transmissions were designed to hold ~100ft/lbs-ish, plenty of people driving around reliably at double, even more in some cases.
Vane'd holset turbos may be designed to be reliable for 100K miles on a diesel engine, perhaps 50K is possible on gas. Anyone have any actual experience, please share.

I want to see Boost Joose' build thread to back up all the talk.
Post it up.

Don't forget to add that "long throw short power shifter" in that build too Mr Engineer.

I'm curious how would one control vanes.. as far as angle and how much.. rpm based? boost based? Rpm x psi graph of some kind? At last go E85 to help with the exhaust temps.

Why is OP such a butt pirate?

Ok for serial: I went to aerocharger site and looked at their biggest one... is it just me or is the compressor map pretty "meh"

Looks simple enough... Boost vs angle..

http://www.3k-warner.de/products/tur...rolSystem.aspx

Ok, maybe I can get this thread back with some tech, lol.

One of the things nobody ever talks about with VGT turbos in gas applications is that they damp out exhaust gas pulses which can hurt spool (think the difference between a properly done manifold compared to a mediocre log manifold). In an app. like the 997 it doesn't matter much because the flat 6 pulses aren't even anyway, but in an I4 you can really take advantage of strong pulses to help get a larger turbine spinning. Obviously even more so in a twin scroll design. Not the end of the world, because the VGT can compensate somewhat, but its still one more factor to consider.

The real point, as Savington pointed out is temperature capability of the VGT turbine housings and vane mechanism. However, OEM small diesel apps are really kicking up the temp limits recently, especially in Europe, but I'm sure some will be coming here at some point, so there should be more choices in the future for people like us.

I can't even begin to describe how flawed this logic is.

BW has the BV50 VGT, over $3k for the turbo alone.

I'm pretty certain motec and v2 have ability to control VGT valving.

Yea, AEM probably lied to me so I wouldn't be the first Miata with vgt......lol

Maybe try this?

If I used it correctly, you'll need at least 26# of boost at 7500 to support 500hp.
26# of boost at 2500 = 389 Lb-Ft.
In the real world I would have guessed 30.

I half-assed it, left a lot of the parameters as-is. So it's not set in stone...
Maybe someone smarter than I could take a crack at it.