Yet another coolant reroute with pics.
 

Hey guys, I decided to take my engine out and go for the coolant reroute at the same time I fixed some oil leaks.

I found the reroute to be easier than expected even though I'm not too sure if I'll face any issues with the piping coming out of the back when they put the engine back on the car.

I decided to put some pics up of what they're done before the engine goes back in so that anyone with more knowledge than me on the subject may suggest anything.

I'll post a few more.

Thanks,

A couple more pics. One with the heatshield finally in place and another with the COPs finally tied and not bouncing around!

Nice job looks good raf, Part number and total cost of possible.

repair shops look waaaaaaay different in the caribbean

is that hose gonna fit behind the CAS in the engine bay? 1.6 t-stat housing might have been a better route to go. would shoot it out under the CAS.

...whats up with that garage? any details on that?

You're dead on but I couldn't wait for it to get here.

In fact I question myself whether it's going to fit or not. For now it will have to do.

I was tired of running around without A/C on this weather. :mad:

My tuner's current shop. He's moving in a couple of weeks to his own shop but don't expect things to be much better than what you see there. I'm sure it will be cleaner.

You'd be surprised with the kind of cars he tunes there!

I have only bought a NAPA 180 degree thermostat so far. I do need a 1.6 thermostat housing but I couldn't wait any longer.

I paid for the valve cover painting job as part of the deal. He chose to do so and I said go ahead. This way he's happy and I get a better result. He also painted the IC pipings that color. I like it. I'm even surprised myself that I do. It only cost $90 to paint all those parts. :giggle:

The guy in the first pic is my tuner's head mechanic and I was adamant that he had to do this job on his own.

I was forgetting; he also had someone make me the plug for the front of the engine in aluminum but that part of the job I still haven't paid for so I don't know how much.

I had bought the blue hoses on ebay (I think it was something like $80).

One question- I see no provision for the heater hoses. I realize you probably don't require the heater very often, but do you have any provision for coolant to circulate through the engine prior to the thermostat opening?

Paul is correct. Try turning the 1.8 t/stat cover 180 degrees and go under the intake manifold forward to the top of the radiator. While it is off, put a 3/16 hole in the t/stat flange.

No heatercore in my case, ever. I did worry about the coolant not circulating through the engine prior to the thermostat opening. I had decided to follow olderguy's advice on an earlier thread about opening a small hole in the tstat housing.

Even though I've really considered this from the start I was thinking about trying it without making the hole first. What I discovered with the current tstat was that doing so did not fix my cooling issues; it only delayed the temps from rising for a little while.

I know both you and Joe know more about this subject than I'll ever learn so any input will be really appreciated. I'd rather make any changes now.

Many thanks

How are you going to bleed the coolant with the hose higher than the top of the rad? I was alway told that the coolant passages had to be lower than the spot we use to bleed the system.

Hmmm....

Fair enough. I had no clue about having to bleed the coolant. I can still change it.

Thanks,

that's news to me because mine bleeds as easily as Artie's mom every month.

lol! your coolant reroute pipe is also on top?

yup. you can see in this pic that it sits above the bolt that would otherwise hold the engine hook.

http://www.miatamx5.com/99swap2/99swap2-76.jpg

nice. I can use either the 1.6 or 1.8 flange, but I'm going to use the highroller spacer (if he ever makes it) and take it on the cold side.

Looks good Rafa, I would still try to take it to the coldside under the intake manifold.
I planned on using the same 1.8 housing there as you.

I asked my mechanic to do it that way but he wasn't too pleased with that option and I really don't care one way or the other (at least as a first try).

Paul, congrats man; that is a sick engine bay! :bigtu:

BTW, what's that heatshield and who sells it? Are you happy with the results?

looks to be tdr

Oh, ok; thanks man!

So the thermo sits at the front of that pipe? I guess there's water flow past it at a T to the water pump? Something has to get hot water to the thermo or it won't open! Any more pics?

I don't think he is sending any water back to the waterpump other than from the radiator. I think he is going without the mixing manifold altogether and replaced it with a 1.8 t-stat housing like Paul.

AMEN.

I put a plug on the mixing manifold line. Only water going to the pump is the one coming out of the radiator.

I'll see if I can provide more pics when I get home tonight.

I guess my ignorance is showing here, but... Without water going to the pump, you have STAGNANT water in the head until the thermostat opens??

That is why you drill a hole in the t/stat flange. To allow some flow until it opens and to let the t/stat see the temperature rise and activate. With no heater core, I recommend 3/16" diameter.

Ok, that would help. I guess the head might warm up faster with the lower flow... But you'd think the motor as a whole would warm up faster if you cycled the water through the head, and would certainly prevent hotspots.

Still, it seems you could accomplish this with a T right at the thermo, aside from that, I like putting the thermo out front. I wonder what I'd have to do to do this. I sure want to do a reroute on my car!! I'd feel so much better about putting the 180 (190?) OEM thermo back in.

I must say my ignorance also shows here because I always thought there would be moving water everywhere in the cooling system at all times.

Why do you say that there is no water going to the pump? Doesn't the pump start pumping water the minute one turns the engine on?

Please accept my apologies in advance. I'm only trying to learn.

The water pump tries to suck from the bottom of the radiator and throw water back along the diameter of the pistons and up into the head.

If there is a heater core in the circuit(OEM), the water goes out the back of the head, through the heater core and back to the suction line of the water pump.

When the thermostat opens(it sees temperature rise from the small line that cools the intake manifold on the 1.6 and the oil cooler on the 1.8) water then flows in both directions(through the t/stat to the radiator and still through the heater core.

The problem is that when the t/stat opens, most of the flow goes by the t/stat and very little to the back of the head and cylinders since water takes the course of least resistance.

If the heater core is eliminated in the reroute, there needs to be a way of getting flow to the back of the engine before the t/stat opens. This is accomplished with an extra hole in the s/stat flange.

Once the t/stat opens, you have a continuous loop of water from the bottom of the radiator, through the pump, with a large volume of water from front to back on the engine and out the back to the top of the radiator.

Thanks! :bigtu:

Even I could understand that explanation!

i just drilled holes in my thermo to let a lil water flo........ also i got a 160 thermo.... so when it opens max temp you see is prob 175 while the water is trans... i dont see a reason to put a t and make more chance to have a water leak someware else. IMO

ill see if i could get someone to post pics of my coolant route.. i ran it on the cold side... 1 just to keep it away from heat and 2 i got a top mount
anyways enough of my yappin

proceed

Let me see if I can get some help with the issue I'm facing now. :mad:

I finished my reroute and; if I don't turn the A/C on the temp on my Autometer gauge won't go over 190* no matter what. I can be in rush hour and everything is perfect. I turn the A/C on and everything goes to hell! My Autometer gauge will reach 235* but the car's temp gauge won't budge.

Anyone have a clue about what could be wrong?

I checked both fans and they're working properly.

I appreciate the input.

Looks nice. And as far as the crazy temps go, maybe your stock sending unit is screwed up -or- the autometer is bad.
-Tim

Pictures of the whole setup?

What radiator?

What fans?

Where is the Autometer sensor?

I have to read this thread more, but.... If you need to host images, PM me, I have TONS of space.

Needs more pictures. Morning logic doesn't follow that much text.

My setup:

PWR Radiator

Fans: I used to have the FCM fan shroud with the spals but I took part of it out because the spals didn't flow enough air. I know have the stock fan on the driver side (this is the one that turns on when the tstat sees the temp climb) and the spal from FCM on the passenger side (turning on when the A/C is on only).

The Autometer sensor was welded to the top of the stainless steel pipe.

I promise to take some pics and upload them this afternoon.

Bruce, I went to my mechanic's shop this morning and did a test. I left the car idling with the A/C on for about 5 minutes; the temp on the Autometer gauge went up to 210*. Without turning the car off or moving it, I turned the A/C off and 2 minutes later the Autometer gauge was reading 185*. I'm stumped.

BTW, thanks for the help! :bigtu:

Rafa...
It's not unusual for thermos to turn on slow... I.E. they have to get hot to open that first time (well, the motor does, since there's not enough flow past the thermo). My temps hit their highest of any given day waiting for the thermo to open, then they drop right down right quite.

Also, you might want to do what I did: Bridge a wire from one relay (control line) to the other. That way if either fan comes on, they both come on, and you're not overloading either fuse or relay or wiring.

REALLY helped with my temps, just a few feet of 22 guage wire and you're there.

Abe, I'll follow your advice on installing the fans in parallel but I know that's not the issue right now. I'm starting to think it has to do with the A/C condenser not getting any airflow. I can't find any other explanation.

BTW Bruce, here are some pics of the setup:

The last pic shows the issues I'm facing because I had to use the tstat housing of my car (I couldn't get one from a 1.6 L locally). What's happening is: the hose is rubbing with the firewall making the vibrations unbearable :mad:

Something seems strange in that but I'm not sure what yet. I guess, if it's not too hard to do, you could run no thermo for a bit, and I bet you won't see this issue (or drill more holes in the thermo - so it opens sooner)... I think it's some sort of sticking in the thermo, not the AC?

Then again, turning the AC on and off shouldn't be doing anything! So maybe you are onto something.

I suggest pulling that lump on the end of your valve cover off, putting a crank trigger on, and getting better timing!

BTW, if you get a longer bolt and a stand off, you can turn that 4th COP around:
http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/258961724_9V2mm-L.jpg
Not a good pic, but it works well.

Abe thanks. I need additional info about this part of your post: "I suggest pulling that lump on the end of your valve cover off, putting a crank trigger on, and getting better timing!". I'm very interested.

that was a bit of tongue-in-cheek teasing about NA miatas having a CAS sensor. And you might not need to go through the work Joe did, but swapping the CAS for a toothed wheel on the crank will give you more accurate timing.

The NBs don't use the CAS at all, you'll notice there isn't one in my pic.

A friend of mine had a toothed wheel waterjet cut for like $15, welded it on his crank and is now happily motoring (or as happy as you can get in a volvo).

I can see yours doesn't have a CAS. I like the idea of a crank wheel. I'm not satisfied with my car's timing yet. I'll check Joe's thread. Thanks.

lol on the Volvo remark :bowrofl:

I have a package here that Yoram is supposed to be picking up to send to you. I'll look for a 1.6 t/stat cover and have him include it.

I am having similiar problems with the A/C on that I didn't have with the OEM radiator and stock fans. Now that the Godspeed is in place and the thin fans are installed, I can't run A/C at a standstill without overheating with both fans running all the time.

Thanks.

BTW Bruce, my tuner's head mechanic suggested the following today: he says I should place a slim spal fan on the front of the A/C condenser to flow more air. He says there's too much airflow restriction to the condenser. I'm I making any sense? :confused:

Also, let me know about the tstat cover so I can pay you.

Many thanks

Do you think that is because of the radiator? or because of the fans not flowing enough air? I would think with that much extra capacity that it would be harder to overheat and I was also under the impression that pretty much all slim aftermarket fans should flow more than stock unless they're like 8 inches...

They are the 12" fans. At speed, the Godspeed radiator performed slightly better on the track than my OEM did last year with the same reroute and stock fans, lack of belly pan, etc. I'm thinking that the fans are not performing as well as the OEM fans.

Although, it is possible that the additional thickness of the radiator has something to do with it limiting the flow of air.

Rafa: The t/stat is old and grungy. As long as I don't have to pack and ship it, it's free.

I don't think it's the fans. I've got the factory one on the driver side and the small, thin one on the other side and yet, I face the same cooling issues you do.

One quick question: did you bypass the heatercore on your reroute?

Thanks for the tstat. I owe you one. ;) Let's see if you ever visit these parts so I can pay you back.

So since thread jacking seems to be my thing lately, I guess I'll do it once more.. Does anyone know what the STOCK fans flow? I can't imagine it's more than 1600CFM which is what the majority of the 12" slim fans tend to be.

I have the heater core in the circuit. It operates in the normal mode from the same connection points as stock. The only basic difference in my reroute is that I pull the main line from the back to the top of the radiator through the thermostat(front t/stat position is blocked).

When the t/stat opens, the coolant is flowing through the heater core and the radiator(in parallel) after passing through the engine. Turning on the heat at the track kept my temps down, but it was 95 degrees out, so it was a little warm in the drivers' seat.

specs for a 90:
stock Main fan: 1400 CFM, 6.3A draw
stock A/C fan: 1320 CFM, 5.2A draw

These are the ones I installed:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PROCO...mZ230272278679

Combination of lower flow and larger radiator seems to have made the system VERY marginal.

The OEM fans are not bad - aside from being thick, there's really not a lot wrong with them. I can't say enough good things about ducting - if you put quality shrouding in around all your radiator/intercooler/condensor, it has to be cooler.

Also, maybe what you guys are seeing with the AC is the condensor not getting much air since with all the radiator space air is getting sucked around it and nowt through it?

Got me. I can't say I miss my AC much, I only use it to cool my feet when they get too hot from having the heater on on cold long nights.

Abe, are you trying to convince me that there are no hot days in San Diego?

BTW, how difficult would it be to relocate the A/C condenser?

I've had similar experience with the ebay fans as Bruce. I wouldn't trust the cfm ratings in the ads. I've got a curved blade 16" ebay fan that's rated at 2800cfm yet miraculously only pulls 12 amps, compared to my 2700cfm Spal straight blade that pulls 20amps. I've also had two 12" ebay fans, one failed after minor use and the obviously pulls less air than stock. So I'd venture to say that the quality (motors) in the noname/china fans is probably questionable too.

Relocating is a good idea, but why not change it out to something that better fits the application? What about offsetting exchanger sizes and positions? This way you have some direct air exposure, and less post drag. Like radiators, I'm sure there plenty of condensers out there that could be taken advantage of for their different size. Anybody who is welding aluminum IC pipes can weld up the AC lines- it's the same thickness (if not thicker).

There's 6" of vertical space to take advantage of from the base of the OE radiator to base of the subframe. My current rad sits 2" above the subframe base and still gets a good 6" of direct air exposure - because I'm using 4" of said space, and the condenser sits 2" + higher than the base of the OE rad.
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...upcar/IC05.jpg

Actually, yeah, it's kinda rare. But it gets hot quickly as you go east, away from the water. Anyway, I didn't pull it out because I wanted to improve cooling, I pulled it out since it'd been broken for nearly two years and I figured at this rate I would never fix it. The day I get inspired to fix it I can put it all back in.

How far do you want to move the condenser? I hear they really really want cold air! I wanted to put mine behind the rad but got talked out of it.

Nice drawing, btw! Anyway, all this is reminding me (re-emphasizing for me) that I need to replace my ducting. It made more of a difference than the giant radiator did.

I just dug around on ebay and it looks there are OE condensers that will fit in that vertical space under an OE sized rad. That would make it easy- just get somebody to weld up the OE fittings on the new condenser and reform the mouth shroud.