EMU + COPs on NB - difficult startup
 

Hi,

as mentioned in another thread I got my EMU with the COPs on my (1,6) NB running. Without EMU car starts immediatly, with EMU and COPs car starts only if I crank for a long time. (Mostly it starts only in the moment I stop cranking.)

Any suggestions? Injector lag times setting at the EMU? (What would I put in there for 305 supra injectors?)

Thanks

hmmmmm
not sure how much the injector lag time has to do with cops it is basically just for the injectors as far as i know. keep us updated i would like to hear you succeed.

I will keep you updated. Have to swap the valve cover (made an extra one with brackets for the COPs and painted it.) Will then really fix the COPs onto the valve cover and have another go.

Greets

O.K. got my new vlave cover installed -

Car is starting - still a little strange though

Starting process goes like this -

Ignition on - Pushing my Starter button - cranking (no ignition) - letting go the button - pop (misfiring) --> same procedure 2 times --> third time the car starts when I let go the starter button.

Anyone got a idea what could cause this behaviour? Maybe I should try some bigger wires feeding the +12V to the COPs?

Thanks for your help!

There's good and bad news from my COP+EMU setup.

Good news - I sourced the problem down to be within the EMU, because if I bridge the Ch 1 and Ch 2 ignition pins at the EMU end of the boomslang - the car starts immediatly. (Just like at Sams video, but I#m not giggling so much... ;) )

Bad news - I have no clue why this would be. That's where I hope to get some input from you.

Thanks guys!

Greets

Is there really nobody running the EMU+COPs combination?

I am bidding on a toyota cop set right now on ebay (and i have a emu on my 99)
What's your jumper setup on emu? +5v o +12v output to coils?

The jumper 8 is set to +12V, because the Toyota coils are running on a 12v system

Greets

Are the coils fired by 12v?? I know someone running the EMU on the Mazda system and he had to set it to 5v since the coils trigger on 5 volts.

As I wrote I have the problem running the Toyota Coil on Plug system, not the OEM Mazda system. (The OEM Mazda system is running flawless with the EMU - as the COP system is without the EMU...)

So 12V is O.K.

Greets

Ok, so I'm trying to understand the problem here. I've measured the voltage through my COPS wiring harness and all four COPS are seeing 12v at the 12v pin. The tach connections are only seeing 11.2v. So is the EMB piggy just drawing too much voltage from the triggers?

I wired my EMB years ago so I don't have a Boomslang. I'm not excited about clipping the EMB wiring to check my COPs firing. Can I just have to cut the 12v power to to the EMB to check?

No, you just have to reconnect the two OEM ignition channels ECU to ignition. and take the EMB out there - everything else makes no difference.

Greets

If you see the thread that OG just posted .... it has a picture of how to make a jumper basically to pull the EM out of the ignition wiring......

Uses a mazda radio harness connector to go over the stock EM plug.

Dave,

I'm still trying to understand what the issue is.

So you can set the jumpers to run 12v to the ignition like the Toyota instead of the 5v for the stock Miata.

You can set the rotary switches to run 4 coils instead of 2 (don't know what the rotary setting is though). Has anybody tried this?

Is the problem that you still have to fire two COPs at a time (wasted spark?) with the Miata.

The problem is, that the voltages for the coils drop just enough inside the EMB to keep the coils from firing.

Plug the ignition Connector out of the EMB and bridge the in and out lines with a little wire or paper clip. I dont recall anymore what the settings for 12V at the EMB were.

Greets

Why does that have to happen though? The EMB has settings for the stock Toyota 4 COP set-up. I guess I'm asking why those settings can't be used to run the same 4 COPs retrofitted to a Miata.

I do understand that you can get the Miata to start if you run the Toyota COPs through the Miata's stock ECU. I snipped the connections to my ECU but I installed plugs so bridging the connection will not be a problem. Doesn't that take the EMB timing control offline though?

So where are we in this discussion thread Sven? There's no way to run COPs AND the EMB ignition control?

Well the OEM Toyotas are made to fire 4 COPs - the Miata is made to fire 2 coil. Why the EMB/EMU lowers the voltage - I don't know - I'm a engineer but not an electrical. I emailed Greddy but got no reply until now.

Yes it will take the EMB timing controll out - but will show you if the EMB is your problem. (I myself didn't try this with the EMB but with the EMU - when I had my EMB it didn't get into my mind that this could be my problem)

Well there maybe - over at the (here not very popular) Mnet is a guy who is trying to make a device which changes the signal to a perfect signal to the COPs. There is a thread called "COP? Coil on plug?" at the naturally aspirated section of the power mods forum. Go have a look. Maybe this is worth a shot.

Greets

Yup, confirmed Sven. Reconnected 1G and 1H and it started right up, smooth as butter.

FHS, did changing the switch from 5v to 12v fix the ignition issue with the EMB?

Haven't tried it yet. I just wanted to confirm that it's the EMB and not the Cali ECU. Sven said he tried it with the EMU and got it to start but not easily. I don't want to damage anything so I'm holding back to see if that circuit board solution will work.

It's just one jumper so I'll let you know if i grow some bolas.

The 12V switch / jumper didn't do anything for me.

Greets

Gave it a shot. Nothing.

thanks guys

Just another idea:
The parallel connected COPs might have a lower resistance
then one Miata coil.
That means the amperage? will be lower, probably to low.

It seems possible to run wasted spark sequential ign with
the EMU adding ign output channel 3+4 with corresponding
input channels 1+2.
Maybe the resistance fits better, because the COPs are not parallel.

Or adding a resistor in line to each COP will rise the amperage.

Why the ecu can handle parallel COPs, but the EMU not, who knows.

Falk

I'm not sure I can run the EMB that way. I suppose I could try resistors. I wire them into the brn and brn/yellow triggers for each COP? What ohm resistors would they need to be?

Thanks!

I have the wires put together for my cops... but I haven't had the time to test it yet. Hopefully I will be able to add some stuff to the fire this weekend.

I'm wondering if the 1.8 coils will act any differently, since they don't have a trigger wire.

Dave,

They don't have a trigger wire? How do they know when to fire then?

I suppose you mean - they don't have a tach wire. Mines also don't have the tach wire - with the EMB or EMU it doesn't change anything.

Greets

Yeah, that's what I get for typing while listening to other conversations. <G> Yeah, no tach wire.

But I thought your 1.6 ECU was closer to the 90-93 one vs the M2 1.8's..... Hum..... So I figured you guys would have the tach wire.

We'll see what happens. Hopefully I'll have a chance to play in the next day or two.

Dave,

Nope - no tach wire here. The 1.6 Nbs have the same pinout at the ecu as the 1,8 NBs, I suppose in some ways they are compareable to the later 1,8 NA.

Greets

OK, well, the testing is complete.... unfortunately, it indicates the same issue. I plugged the cops in with a "temp" harness. Turned the key, and it just kept turning over. No start, no coughs, nothin'.

Jumpered the ignition harness in the EM-B (thank for the pics, OG)... and it fired right up.

Definately seems like there's a voltage issue from the EMs to the cops. Haven't played with the jumpers on the EM yet either... figure its better to go through the manual, and have some more time for testing. Ah well, at least its a consistant issue. <G>

Dave,

Sorry to hear - but now at least we know what the bug is... (I was getting anoyed tob be telled everytime "You just plug the damn coils in and there you go..." ;) )

So - now we need someone with some good electronical skills.

Greets

i want to revisit this thread and offer some help if i can because i got around to doing my COPS today and everything went well. i changed jumper 8 to 2-3 and the car was running. not sure if others have persistent problems or got it running. i am using 2001 toyota celica GTS coils on my car.

Which EM are you running with the COPs and the jumper set to 12v????

Can we also get a few more details about your car too?

Dave,

it is a 2001 turbo with emu and jumper 8 set at 12 sorry about not clarifying. cops are pn. 90919-02238 also am running a bloomslang harness.

Tried switching from 5v to 12v on the EMB. On the EMB, it's jumper 2, there is no jumper 8.

Didn't work.

Yeah, I was reading through the PDFs yesterday, trying to figure out. Maybe if I get a bit of time, I'll try the jumper 2 switch. <G>

Dave,

HI Steelrat.. any luck with the 12V jumper 2 switch?

Hey Mini, I haven't had an opportunity to test it yet..... I haven't wanted to disturb the EM-B, or anything else, since it's been running nicely the last few weeks. Hopefully I'll have a chance shortly. If you want to try it, let me know how it goes.....

Dave,

Hi,

I think the difference to musanovic's car is, that his is a 2001. I suppose there is a difference with the wiring there (as the 2001 wiring is quite different to the 99-00 cars.

Nice it did work out for you.

Greets.

Hopefully I get to test the dwell reducer circuit soon.

Sven

i was concluding that as well. it seams there is a gray area in the 99-00 cars. as well as you do have the 1.6 i am willing to help if i can do some testing on my car to help you guys out.

OK, FAILED. I had my COPs wired on my EMB 1.6L. Can't get it to start, I didn't unplug the EMB for a try yet. Hope I could do it later.

I just spliced in the Capacitor I bought from Ben. No start-up. I spliced in to the main 12v and ground near the ignitor. I didn't doublecheck the general wiring on the harness by taking the EMB ignition offline, but it's the same harness that started last time + the cap.

Anybody else try with the cap?