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Old 01-11-2015, 06:57 PM   #1
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Default 2.3 MZR in a custom application ECU dilemma

This question is not Miata related......

I am in the process of installing a 2004 Mazda 3 2.3 drivetrain/ECU into my 95 Ford Escort, and apparently the Mazda 3 has an immobilizer system that requires the instrument cluster since its what stores the key code/verifies the key code and sends the inhibit or enable signal to the ECU via CAN BUS to start and run the car. Since I did not know the cluster was part of the system I either sold it or threw it out a while ago and its long gone, and due to how the system works I cant just get another cluster since it has to be programmed with the key code from the key I have which also requires me to have the VIN number and since I sent the shell to scrap along with the title for the car, I dont have the VIN either..

My obvious alternative is to run a standalone but I would like to avoid this since I am not interested in tuning and the time it takes and would rather have something that runs like OEM right out of the box. I am sure a PNP NB Miata Megasquirt could work since the MZR uses things like COP, VVT, and VICS style intake but I would like to try and avoid the hassle of making it work.

Does anybody have a way or know what kind of signal the ECU is looking for from the cluster in order to enable it to start the car?

I need help on this since this project has come to a complete stop due to this problem.
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Old 01-12-2015, 01:03 AM   #2
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I would open the hptuners supported vehicles page and cross reference that with vehicles that motor came in, and figure out what car you need to attack in a junk yard.
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Old 01-12-2015, 01:10 AM   #3
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Thats unique to mazda. The Ford duratec 2.0 and 2.3(same as mzr but without vvt) has a similar immobilizer system (pats) but you don't need the cluster just the key that matches the ecu (this only applies if you use the stock ecu). If you dont have the key you have to get two keys programmed. Most lock smiths can program a pats key.
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Old 01-12-2015, 11:32 AM   #4
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Is this throttle by wire? Have any pics of the car? Sounds like a really cool swap.
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Old 01-12-2015, 04:13 PM   #5
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If the inhibit/enable signal works the same as the Miata, it can be bypassed. Do you have schematics for the 04 3?
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Old 01-12-2015, 04:59 PM   #6
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1. Go to junkyard
2. Pull cluster and ecu from another mazda 3
3. Record vin number
4. Get new key made
5. ???
6. Profit
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Old 01-12-2015, 05:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
1. Go to junkyard
2. Pull cluster and ecu from another mazda 3
3. Record vin number
4. Get new key made
5. ???
6. Profit
Every time I have been to Mazda to get a key made based on a VIN they have always wanted the registration of the vehicle to prove I owned it before they would make me a key. So while this looks to be the easiest way, the dealership might give him some trouble.
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Old 01-12-2015, 05:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
1. Go to junkyard
2. Pull cluster and ecu from another mazda 3
3. Record vin number
4. Get new key made
5. ???
6. Profit
Why is that better than
1. Cross reference motor with HPT applications chart
2. Pull correct ecu from junk yard
3. Match wiring harnesses
4. Turn off security with HPT and then tune the car with one of the best turning interface money can buy.
5. ???
6. Proft
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Old 01-12-2015, 06:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Every time I have been to Mazda to get a key made based on a VIN they have always wanted the registration of the vehicle to prove I owned it before they would make me a key. So while this looks to be the easiest way, the dealership might give him some trouble.
I figured if you brought in the ECU, gauge cluster, and receipt from the junkyard they might not give you any ****. You could always call them ahead of time and confirm this with them directly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Why is that better than
1. Cross reference motor with HPT applications chart
2. Pull correct ecu from junk yard
3. Match wiring harnesses
4. Turn off security with HPT and then tune the car with one of the best turning interface money can buy.
5. ???
6. Proft
I don't know what an HPT applications chart is and this sounds like it deals with altering electronics. I hate touching wiring or doing any kind of soldering. This is probably easier for some but I would not trust myself to do this correctly.
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Old 01-12-2015, 06:24 PM   #10
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Just scroll down to where it says ford. Pick one with the correct engine, make sure its the same engine because sometimes the fords didnt have VVT like the mazdas did. HPTuners.com >> Performance At Your Fingertips
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderKunt View Post
Thats unique to mazda. The Ford duratec 2.0 and 2.3(same as mzr but without vvt) has a similar immobilizer system (pats) but you don't need the cluster just the key that matches the ecu (this only applies if you use the stock ecu). If you dont have the key you have to get two keys programmed. Most lock smiths can program a pats key.
This engine is VVT and I dont think any of the Ford versions came with VVT until they started using the 2.5L in the Fusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Is this throttle by wire? Have any pics of the car? Sounds like a really cool swap.
Unfortunately it is DBW, and I wish it wasnt but I dont have any choice when running the OEM ECU. The best pictures of this car are here:
https://www.miataturbo.net/meet-gree...-myself-74845/

And my 94 Escort Wagon that I plan to F2T swap:
94 Ford Escort Wagon- F2T swap thread - ProbeTalk.com Forums

Quote:
Originally Posted by C. Ludwig View Post
If the inhibit/enable signal works the same as the Miata, it can be bypassed. Do you have schematics for the 04 3?
Yes I do, I will post the files in a little while

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
I figured if you brought in the ECU, gauge cluster, and receipt from the junkyard they might not give you any ****. You could always call them ahead of time and confirm this with them directly.
I highly doubt bringing in the parts would work anyway considering I am 100% sure all programming would have to be done through the OBD port. I have a Chrysler WiTech dealer scan tool at work and everything has to be done through the OBD port from programming new keys, programming a replacement module, to changing setting in a module to anything else you could imagine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Just scroll down to where it says ford. Pick one with the correct engine, make sure its the same engine because sometimes the fords didnt have VVT like the mazdas did. HPTuners.com >> Performance At Your Fingertips
All the Ford applications they have listed are non VVT.



I contacted the ONLY Tuner that offers ECU programming for the 04-05 Mazda 3-- Dynotronics. They told me it cant be done with the 3 ECU currently but that I could get a 06-09 Miata ECU and harness and they could bypass the immobilizer on it, and I am trying to get additional information from them about if the Miata ECU will work with my DBW throttle setup from the 3 and if I cant just re-pin my 3 harness since both ECU's have the same exact connector.
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Old 01-12-2015, 10:18 PM   #12
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Default Wiring Schematics for Immobilizer

I took screen shots of the schematics:
Attached Thumbnails
2.3 MZR in a custom application ECU dilemma-screen-shot-2015-01-12-7.11.24-pm.png   2.3 MZR in a custom application ECU dilemma-screen-shot-2015-01-12-7.17.02-pm.png   2.3 MZR in a custom application ECU dilemma-screen-shot-2015-01-12-7.17.49-pm.png  
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:04 AM   #13
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More than dyno tronics supports your stock ecu. epifanSoftware | mazdaEdit But the tuning interface seems so bad that it would have been better if you could have used an hp tuners application even if it meant having to do a lot of wiring.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:12 PM   #14
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Good news! Dynotronics has informed me that I only need the Miata ECU and they recommend the wire harness, but I dont need the key or PATS module from the Miata and they can easily bypass it.
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Old 01-23-2015, 09:00 PM   #15
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Does anyone have a complete OEM wiring manual for an NC Miata in PDF or HTML form they can give me? I want to compare a few things to see if I really need to purchase a Miata harness to go with the Miata ECU.
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Old 06-14-2015, 03:09 PM   #16
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So I have another question for the ECU experts here.

I really want to ditch the DBW throttle but sticking with an OEM NC Miata ECU doesn't allow me any choice. The advantage to all this is I don't have to deal with tuning all the cold start/drivability stuff like I would with a standalone and there doesn't seem to be any DIY tuning options out there for NC stuff unless I feel like paying $1k.

So I have another thought....what if I just got a MSPNP unit for a Miata that can run COPS/VVT since this stuff is standard on this engine, made my own harness since this is a custom application and used the PNP base maps to run this engine so I don't have to start from scratch. Should be a good half way point between a universal your on your own MS and the OEM unit?

The only problems that I see would be different crank/cam triggers and possibly VVT signals.

What do you guys think?
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Old 06-14-2015, 07:25 PM   #17
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Much better off wiring it up with a universal megasquirt if you go that way.

There are some off the shelf plug and play standalones for the MZR duratec, they even have like standalone harnesses designed for this motor since its super duper mega popular to swap into sweet things in europe. Cable throttle body wise you could set it up to work with a first generation duratec ecu which used one and its covered by hp tuners and sct but you'd need an external vvt controller. And there's some jeep throttle body that just needs the holes enlarged and it fits the miata manifold I forget which jeep, I saw it on the ranger forum.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Much better off wiring it up with a universal megasquirt if you go that way.

There are some off the shelf plug and play standalones for the MZR duratec, they even have like standalone harnesses designed for this motor since its super duper mega popular to swap into sweet things in europe. Cable throttle body wise you could set it up to work with a first generation duratec ecu which used one and its covered by hp tuners and sct but you'd need an external vvt controller. And there's some jeep throttle body that just needs the holes enlarged and it fits the miata manifold I forget which jeep, I saw it on the ranger forum.

I realize I worded my initial statement wrong about paying $1000 for something to tune with. I meant paying that much and still not being able to ditch the DBW throttle. I am ok with paying that much for a solution if I have too.

Anyway I looked around and found a place in the UK that makes ECU's and a wire harness for this engine, including base maps and they will even set it up for you. It has all the capability to control all aspects of this engine including extras like A/C and fan control and triple map switching.

EmeraldM3D.com - K6 ECU Info & Specification
Emerald Full ECU wiring loom - Ford Duratec engine
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:59 PM   #19
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Yeah, check out their tuning software first as always.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:45 AM   #20
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I sent them an email with some questions I had and so far I have found many people were pleased with their friendly tuning interface even before Tuner studio came along for MS so that sounds promising. The biggest praise seems to be that people can call directly and get live phone help from them if they have a problem.
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