Hypothetical question/rambling about other oem ecu's - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


ECUs and Tuning Discuss Engine Management, Tuning, & Programming

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-26-2015, 12:01 PM   #21
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,997
Total Cats: 1,463
Default

It was a dsmlink ecu, I'm having trouble finding the video but the build thread is underdogs degredified sunflower I thought.
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2015, 12:12 PM   #22
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,192
Total Cats: 2,583
Default

Yes, mitsu ecu, but that was on a janky old 1.6, not a MSM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
Honestly, since people are already socketing and tuning these ecus, the hard part has been done.

From here it's just a matter of getting an ostrich cable setup and a gui interface to read/modify the hex code on the fly.
brool cory sto

and Ima let you finish.

but we still haven't seen anyone here do this and document it, so until it's done I'm gonna say it's probably not "as easy as..."

I would be VERY happy to eat my words if someone wants to prove me wrong tho. I'll even sell my PNP-PRO and switch if that's the case
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2015, 12:44 PM   #23
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 695
Total Cats: 140
Default

0411?
gesso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2015, 12:48 PM   #24
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,997
Total Cats: 1,463
Default

From what I've read in the alpha omega thread an emulator is used in place of the eeprom. It is then tuned on the dyno with the emulators. When you're done tuning the emulator data is flashed to a chip and then installed into the ecu.
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2015, 03:43 PM   #25
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 143
Total Cats: 8
Default

As a Californian, a cracked stock ECU would be the way to go. You might get a non-stock ECU to pass SMOG/inspection, but a stocker would be way better. I believe it has been cracked. SM has had issues (maybe still going on) with modified ECUs.

It would probably be more expensive than a MS3. While there's not a hardware component to the OEM unit there is a massive amount of reverse engineering to get to the point where you have near ubiquitous control, way more so than developing software with component datasheets. And you don't get the sales to other vehicles that MS3.
PatCleary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2015, 03:45 PM   #26
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,997
Total Cats: 1,463
Default

The most cost effective way to get reverse engineering done is to have experienced enthusiasts get together and crack it. Any corporate funded reverse engineering is ungodly expensive because of the necessary man hours. Free software cracks for games and software come from groups that have fun doing stuff like that. Not for profit organizations.
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2015, 04:34 PM   #27
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 143
Total Cats: 8
Default

But the most effective way to get it done is for there to be money on the line. Which is why it's almost always companies that crack them. My guess is you're talking about tens of thousands of hours when the work's done, with a pretty serious time multiplier for coordinating with multiple parties in different locations.

And which one are you going to do? Everyone get's the same game. There are several ECU configurations. I'm not volunteering a thousand hours of development time for no cash, and an ECU that might not work for my car.
PatCleary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2015, 04:35 PM   #28
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
concealer404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,465
Total Cats: 782
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Yes, mitsu ecu, but that was on a janky old 1.6, not a MSM.



brool cory sto

and Ima let you finish.

but we still haven't seen anyone here do this and document it, so until it's done I'm gonna say it's probably not "as easy as..."

I would be VERY happy to eat my words if someone wants to prove me wrong tho. I'll even sell my PNP-PRO and switch if that's the case
I didn't say it would be easy.

I also doubt that most people here would be capable of creating like... Crome or NepTune from ground up. Which is what it would take.

I'm just saying that the ECUs are likely capable of doing it, else they couldn't be socketed. Just that nobody has done the work.

For the record, i wouldn't **** with this on a Miata, either. I'd go straight to Megasquirt.

We got to this point in the MX6 world a long time ago as well. Someone even had an ostrich cable going and could make real time changes. Downside is that that dude was an idiot savant and could reasonably read hex code and just changed it directly. Nobody ever made an actual program to make it easy for everyone.

That's how the chips i run were created. Real time tuning/changes.

It's as easy as creating/adapting something like Crome to work. Is that easy? Not for me.


I also bet that it's been done before, unless the Begi reflashes are far more nefarious than i previously thought.
concealer404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2015, 04:35 PM   #29
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,849
Total Cats: 271
Default

I had once thought of a horrible plan to run Stock ecu + current xede for emissions/annual checkup and swap to PnPMS3 once done. That way it'd save me the trouble of swapping injectors, by having 3 ecus....

Realized this was the lazy expen$ive way out. Swapping back to stock injectors, stock ecu seems more reasonable.
Girz0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2015, 12:10 AM   #30
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Mobius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,178
Total Cats: 267
Default

I would rather swap ecus than swap injectors.

Which is why I own stock ecu, Xede, and MS3. But I may be working around the requirement for the first two. We'll see. As of yesterday I'm good until 03/17.
Mobius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2015, 12:32 AM   #31
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,849
Total Cats: 271
Default

Is it possible to run ID injectors on the Xede?
Girz0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2015, 01:20 AM   #32
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Mobius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,178
Total Cats: 267
Default

That I don't know. You could ask Bell.
Mobius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2015, 01:37 AM   #33
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Mobius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,178
Total Cats: 267
Default

So there is not enough communication on this board. Matthewdesigns is running the ecu out of a 92 Galant VR4 with the ECMlink software.

Link to relevant post

Quote from his build:
Quote:
Just in case you are late to the thread, I'm running an ECU and engine harness out of a '92 Galant VR4 with tuning software called ECMLink. ECMLink offers full standalone operation of the timing and fuel, external device triggers, modular inputs for non-standard devices, etc, with a great datalogger built in. And now fully integrated GM flexfuel sensor support.

After being preoccupied with the coilover install and setup over the last couple of weekends, I finally took some time got my flexfuel sensor wired in and all the parameters set up (see two posts up for hardware install). It's pretty damn nice to not have to drag a laptop around with me on road trips anymore in case I can't find any e85 and have to switch maps. Most of the populated areas in CO have e85 readily available, but up in the mountains it's hit and miss.

The car has to be running speed density to make use of the flexfuel sensor, as the original ECU input for the MAF variable signal is used for the flexfuel input. Wiring it up was as easy as finding the unused MAF wire in the harness, and adding a +12V source and chassis ground for the sensor. The ECMLink software will automatically interpolate between two timing tables (min and max octane) as well as adjust the global injector scaling based on the ethanol content of the fuel. I have control over the low and high crossover points for the timing tables, as well as the compensation percentage between pumpgas and E100. There is no external boost control tied into the sensor readings, but that does not bother me as I'm running the same amount of pressure on pumpgas and ethanol. I can use a dual stage boost controller in the future if I need to.
Mobius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2015, 02:57 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 1,272
Total Cats: 32
Default

In the past I've had my ECU reflashed by Lachlan at ChipTorque (the Aussie company doing the work for BEGi). It was a pretty good outcome, he made it work with the RX-8 Denso injectors and the tune was as good as a factory turbo car (not like the stupid MSM tune).

They socketed my ECU:



I posted about it briefly in my build thread.

Lachlan was hitting the voltage ceiling of the airflow meter with my setup, and I looked into swapping to a supercharged Mazda Millenia airflow meter. It looked like it could have worked but I ended up swapping to an Adaptronic after using them on several other cars and really liking them.

I think it's a good solution for someone local to ChipTorque/BEGi who has modded an MSM and wants a nice quick street car without any fuss. I like to tinker too much!

I'm not what smarts are on that board but I don't want to rip off their work. I looked into interrogating the Motorola's BDM interface but I really don't have time. If you could somehow dump the flash then run it through something like WinOLS you might have some success. There's probably more to it.

Cheers
Attached Thumbnails
Hypothetical question/rambling about other oem ecu's-50184-saboteurs-escargot-nb-7641968756_2e52385cd2_z.jpg  
timk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2015, 09:20 AM   #35
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Baltimore Maryland
Posts: 1,010
Total Cats: 8
Default

It seems to me that if the work of socketing is already done by bell and/or chiptourque, that it would probably be profitable for them to develop things further. They must be tuning their reflash somehow, and I don't understand why they haven't taken it a step or two further (unless I'm misunderstanding the sheer magnitude of the steps involved)
airbrush1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2015, 09:42 AM   #36
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (10)
 
Reverant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,440
Total Cats: 198
Default

How on earth is the K-Pro legal in the states? Tampering an emissions device and whatnot.
Reverant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2015, 10:08 AM   #37
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,192
Total Cats: 2,583
Default

It's not legal. But that doesn't mean that a ton of people won't run it despite the disclaimer that says "for off road use only".

The cobb accessports and other similar devices sold and used on HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CARS TODAY, all have the ability to directly alter all that stuff too, and they're selling like hotcakes right now. We're talking about a serious market.

this is why it's so sad to see miata's so far behind the curve.

....but then again an MSM is already over 10 years old, so no one really even cares.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2015, 10:12 AM   #38
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Baltimore Maryland
Posts: 1,010
Total Cats: 8
Default

K-pro, hptuners, and many many other systems using a stock ecu exist and I assume are legal. SEMA is responsible for keeping it that way I believe. As long as the OBDII system remains functional, and isn't simply simulated, companies don't really have any liability for what an end user or tuner might do with their software/hardware. "for offroad use only" is a wonderful turn of phrase!
airbrush1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2015, 10:21 AM   #39
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,192
Total Cats: 2,583
Default

Yep, exactly.

This is why Rev should totally replicate their efforts, but on a Miata ecu
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2015, 11:09 AM   #40
Supporting Vendor
 
Matt Cramer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,266
Total Cats: 51
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airbrush1 View Post
In between my last hydra run miata, and my current msm, I owned several vehicles that could be tuned on the stock ecu (corvette, evo) and it just seems so much simpler than screwing with standalones.
Making minor tweaks to a factory calibrated map designed for a stock version of your engine to support modifications to the engine the ECU was originally designed is fairly straightforward. Retuning all the tables inside a stock ECU to give a proper cold start, warmup sequence, acceleration enrichment, and good drivability on an engine that has absolutely nothing in common with anything the OEM calibration engineers ever tuned the engine for is not.

Swapping the sensors over is often the easy part. (Well, maybe not with a Honda distributor; that may not clear the Miata's firewall if you put it where the CAS is!)
Matt Cramer is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Raleigh: Fiberglass headlight scope, 1.6L ECU, AFM, Hardtop latches, more bigmackloud Miata parts for sale/trade 13 09-22-2017 01:34 PM
Garrett Turbo, 1.8 Oil Pan, & Misc. Stuff nbdooey Miata parts for sale/trade 9 08-30-2017 10:50 PM
1994 Spec Miata Race Car SM/SM2/SSM For Sale Quinn Cars for sale/trade 6 10-23-2016 08:58 AM
BP-6D on CAS only aidandj MEGAsquirt 14 09-25-2015 06:26 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:11 AM.