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Old 04-26-2011, 06:51 PM   #1
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Default MSM legal engine managment

Hey guys what are my options for the MSM that will pass OBDII plugin inspection? I know a standalone is pretty much out of the question because I don't want to switch out ECU and injectors every couple of years. What piggyback systems are good? And to the ones that do switch out the ECU/injectors do you get sick of it or do you think it is worth it? Thanks, James.
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Old 04-26-2011, 06:53 PM   #2
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I'm swapping out my own ECU every couple of weeks or so to test the ECUs I build on my car and I don't think its much of an issue...? Injectors can be pulled out and replaced in less than half an hour if you are lazy and take your time on the square-top intake manifold engine.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:07 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesfs912 View Post
What piggyback systems are good?
Xede and EMU are probably the least bad of the lot. They're the only ones I know of that support wideband EGO sensors. Both are not inexpensive, though the Xede is less inexpensive by a considerable margin.

Have you considered a parallel install with something like an MS2 or MS3 doing just fuel and ignition control?

One thing I wonder- will a stock MSM ECU throw codes for overboost? I'm sure somebody already knows the answer, I've just never heard it.
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:36 PM   #4
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Reverant when you swap out ECUs do you get an immediate CEL. What I'm trying to say is would I be able to limp over to an inspection right after the swap or would I have to get the stock ECU in ready mode.

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Xede and EMU are probably the least bad of the lot. They're the only ones I know of that support wideband EGO sensors. Both are not inexpensive, though the Xede is less inexpensive by a considerable margin.

Have you considered a parallel install with something like an MS2 or MS3 doing just fuel and ignition control?

One thing I wonder- will a stock MSM ECU throw codes for overboost? I'm sure somebody already knows the answer, I've just never heard it.
I have been looking at the xede and I am leaning more towards that than anything else. For the parallel install with the ms would I have to hack up my harness(first of hearing of this) and would it illuminate the CEL? Stock MSM has a boost cut at 10.5 psi for safety reasons but it can be bypassed.
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:42 PM   #5
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diypnp>* for the money imo

and seriously: how hard is it to swap out once a year or two years?

unplug, plug in stock ecu, drive 65 for 10-15 minutes for ecu to do self diagnostic, go to inspection, profit. Anyone that can't do that shouldn't be modifying cars in the 1st place. No offense.
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Old 04-28-2011, 06:40 PM   #6
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diypnp>* for the money imo

and seriously: how hard is it to swap out once a year or two years?

unplug, plug in stock ecu, drive 65 for 10-15 minutes for ecu to do self diagnostic, go to inspection, profit. Anyone that can't do that shouldn't be modifying cars in the 1st place. No offense.
No offense taken. My main concern was how annoying was swapping out injectors every couple of years. Would I be able to just unplug the ms or would I have to pull sensors, etc.. I want the swap to be as easy as possible.
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Old 04-28-2011, 06:50 PM   #7
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I think you might also be able to do a parallel install with the Adaptronic and maintain OBD-II scanability.
Honestly it depends on how much you want to do to the car. a simple turbo upgrade with injectors wouldn't be too much of a problem to swap back. If you want to do a bunch more then it is gonna be more of a pain to swap back.
What state do you live in?
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Old 04-28-2011, 06:51 PM   #8
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To run ms in speed density like just about everyone does you need a proper ait sensor that reads temps post turbo. gm is like 30 bux IIRC and takes all of 5 minutes to connect/disconnect. Tapping the charge pipe might take a bit longer, but if you're planning on making power safely in a turbocharged car you need something like that anyhow. The stock POS plastic plug in one just won't cut it.

That's about it for sensors. No need to remove any of the ones on there, just add the ait.

As for injectors, its about a 20-30 minute job if you work slow. remove tb reinforcement bracket, pop off the charge pipe, remove the bolts holding the top half of mani in place, undo fuel rail and swap. Its seriously not hard.
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Old 04-28-2011, 06:56 PM   #9
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I live in Fairfax, Va
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:04 PM   #10
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Some states like OR only have certain areas where vehicles are required to have smog checks, so you can register your vehicle at a different address outside that area and voila! no need for smog checks
as for Virgina I think you are SOL on that account
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesfs912 View Post
No offense taken. My main concern was how annoying was swapping out injectors every couple of years. Would I be able to just unplug the ms or would I have to pull sensors, etc..
Depends entirely on how you set it up. If you build and install it in such a way that all of the stock sensors are retained (easy to do) then all you'd need to pull would be the MS and the injectors themselves. Probably 30 minutes' work.



Quote:
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Reverant when you swap out ECUs do you get an immediate CEL. What I'm trying to say is would I be able to limp over to an inspection right after the swap or would I have to get the stock ECU in ready mode.
You won't have a CEL or be in "limp" mode. What you will have is a bunch of monitors that show "not ready", and will need a bit of driving done to become happy. I think that somewhere in the manual it gives you a specific drive cycle to perform that will set all the monitors to ready in just a few minutes.


Quote:
For the parallel install with the ms would I have to hack up my harness
No, you don't have to hack up your harness. You need a little inline harness extender, just like you'd use with an Xede: http://boomslang.us/extension.htm
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:40 AM   #12
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I'm in the same OBDII situation.
2000 SE, FM2 GT2560, Mega Squirt DIYPNP (MS2Extra 3.0.3s), Toyota COP,RX7 550cc, Innovate Wideband.
I'm not sure if I have all the OE parts to swap everything back.
I've got the stock ECU. I took a quick look at the Boomslang harness. If I understand correctly, it would allow you to run the stock ECU and the MS units?
Then you have to alter the wiring harness so that there is no duplicate signals?
The stock ECU get the signals it needs for OBDII and the MS unit continues with its job.

In Braineack's "DIY FaQ - All your answers in one big post"
At the bottom, under Full ECU--Piggyback:

5- Megasquirt
Compatibility: ’90 – ’97, possible ‘99+ by custom request.
Vendor: 404 Not Found
Price: $350 - $600 (varies by application)
Additional parts: Injectors, WBO2 (optional)
Opinion: A couple of very smart fellows have taken the basic Megasquirt and adapted it to a “parallel” configuration. Unlike the other piggybacks, this one seizes full control of fuel and ignition, but leaves the stock ECU in place to handle trivial tasks like idle, A/C, and the CEL. They include a plug-n-play harness, tailored to your specific application.
Pros: All the goodness of Megasquirt, with less hassle.
Cons: none

If you click on Vendor: 404 Not Found
It comes back to Braineack (PM'ed him, hasn't heard back)
Anybody done this? How'd it work out?

Thanks also for the help,
-JB
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Old 05-02-2011, 05:01 AM   #13
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Like I said, I've done it and it wasn't fun. Idling was all over the place. The car runs soooo much better now that the MS2 controls the engine in full.
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Old 09-16-2011, 08:55 PM   #14
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Bumping this thread because it's EXACTLY the information I need, in order to decide what year I'll be using in a build. A little bit bummed out that the thread petered out.

I also believe I read about an '01ish having a new chip flashed for his combination, by BEGI. Can that be done for all the OBDII years? Frankly, this seems the least attractive option. At that point you can't tweak the system for future upgrades, unless you flash the damn thing again.

The parallel idea would be rockin' if it actually played well with the stock ECU. Kaiser and I live in the same town, and his idea of registering the car beyond the grasp of the DEQ boundary is really a workaround/bandaid.....although I've used it myself before. I'd much rather just have a legit setup.

One final question: I have no issue with taking the time to unplug the MS, plug in the stock ECU, and toss on the old injectors.....but....now I have a stock ECU trying to run a turbo. Does not compute...Would that even work, at all?

I did read Brain's MS FAQ write up as well. All it really showed me is that I don't know jack shat about how electronic stuff actually works. And you want me to modify it? Have you lost your mind? I'm still struggling to wrap my head around the terminology. My self esteem is completely blown and I'm contemplating a career in baking.

Help a cracker out...

---Cobra
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Old 09-20-2011, 08:03 PM   #15
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BTW u need to drive +100miles for the stock ecu to do diagnostics. It takes about 80 miles to do a cat efficiency test and the gas tank has to do at least 3/4ths of a full/low cycle so the evap system is ready. I drove about 140 miles and went through and passed. I tried the first time at 30miles since reset however tests showed cat efficiency, evap and egr not ready.

Still no big deal. Go standalone and dont look back.
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Old 09-20-2011, 10:55 PM   #16
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what is your goal? Are you going to be retuning it all the time? I've riding some BEGI resocketed ecu cars with great results.
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Old 09-21-2011, 10:08 AM   #17
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Tripple, the points you bring up are exactly why it's just a much more user friendly solution getting things to work in conjunction with one another. I'm plenty mechanically competent to swap things back and forth for a week or so every two years (in Oregon). But man, what a drag. This many years into wrenching on cars, I'm just tired of patching things together, ya know. I want it to be done RIGHT. The proper way, the first time.

Some folks have mentioned you could possibly just put back the stock ECU and injectors? Would this even be possible? At that point you'd have a turbo system on your stock ECU, with NO mass air flow meter. So now it's getting more complex, because the MAF would have to go back in as well. Etc, etc.

I'm leaning toward a '94 or '95 for a base build, so I don't have to deal with the OBDII at all. Bummer is, it just really limits the number of vehicles out there to choose from. Not impossible mind you, just limiting.

---Cobra
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:00 AM   #18
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Alright well if you want to think about it that way, it took me an hr to swap out the injectors, unhook the wastegate so it doesnt spool and all of 15 minutes to unplug the map, plug in my maf and the stock ecu.


Working with the stock ecu will be just the opposite than together.

If its such a big deal i'd go with a obd1 NA. (Assuming obd 1 cars dont get tested in your state)
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Old 09-22-2011, 08:07 PM   #19
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Pre '96 cars do get tested, but they only get the sniffer test, and a visual for the CEL. Easy money.
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:25 PM   #20
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Pre '96 cars do get tested, but they only get the sniffer test, and a visual for the CEL. Easy money.
That's sucks. Over here in IL, OBD 1 vehicles dont get tested for emissions however a cat is required. Its illegal to drive without one.
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