Noob looking for Piggyback
12-02-2021, 01:09 PM
#1
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Noob looking for Piggyback
I do not want a standalone ECU because I cannot drive the Miata in my state, so I am looking for a piggyback so I can pass State emissions.
Is the FM Voodoo the only solution that is currently available? Anything else out there?
Second option is to find a non-Emissions testing State and register the car there, possibly make up a Delaware LLC an register the car through a Delaware Agent. Then I can add a MS3 and have more fun.
Can anyone recommend a piggyback, or if they had success registering the Miata in a non-Emissions testing State?
Thanks!
Is the FM Voodoo the only solution that is currently available? Anything else out there?
Second option is to find a non-Emissions testing State and register the car there, possibly make up a Delaware LLC an register the car through a Delaware Agent. Then I can add a MS3 and have more fun.
Can anyone recommend a piggyback, or if they had success registering the Miata in a non-Emissions testing State?
Thanks!
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12-02-2021, 03:49 PM
#6
Why don't we take a step back and start with the basics:
What have you done to your engine or what are you planning to do, that would require an aftermarket ECU? Please be as specific as possible.
What are the regulations that you need to work around? Are we talking about one of the states where it's easy to find a test station that'll look the other way on some things, or the People's Republic of California, where it's getting increasingly difficult to work around the system, so to speak?
What is your level of mechanical, electrical, and computer competency? Can you be trusted to create your own piggyback harness, or do you need help identifying what goes in the hole under the 710 cap?
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12-02-2021, 04:07 PM
#7
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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My highly modified Mazdaspeed came from Nevada. With the Hydra Nemesis ECU (was replaced with MS3), he must have had trouble with smog testing. The car came with almost every nut/bolt so the OEM ECU and injectors were also there, likely swapped back in when they needed to pass a test. The second owner "sold" it to his parents and the father, an attorney, wrote up whatever he needed to sell "their MSM" to me. He claimed to have trouble with seeing well enough to autocross and raced it on a few tracks but I'm thinking the state was cracking down on out of state registrations and it also didn't make a great street car with the stiffer suspension and Lotus Elise seats with worn out foam. I guess my point is, depending on your state, make sure you research what's currently going on and near future plans for smog testing as well as cracking down on registering cars out of state. Swapping ECU/injectors might be easier but it's becoming increasingly more difficult in some states and penalties might be steep. Would moving to another state be easiest in the long run? 
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12-02-2021, 05:27 PM
#8
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Oh, the n00b hubris. Enjoy the negcats. Vlad has more tuning knowledge in his morning poop than many so-called tuners have between their ears.
Why don't we take a step back and start with the basics:
What have you done to your engine or what are you planning to do, that would require an aftermarket ECU? Please be as specific as possible.
What are the regulations that you need to work around? Are we talking about one of the states where it's easy to find a test station that'll look the other way on some things, or the People's Republic of California, where it's getting increasingly difficult to work around the system, so to speak?
What is your level of mechanical, electrical, and computer competency? Can you be trusted to create your own piggyback harness, or do you need help identifying what goes in the hole under the 710 cap?
Why don't we take a step back and start with the basics:
What have you done to your engine or what are you planning to do, that would require an aftermarket ECU? Please be as specific as possible.
What are the regulations that you need to work around? Are we talking about one of the states where it's easy to find a test station that'll look the other way on some things, or the People's Republic of California, where it's getting increasingly difficult to work around the system, so to speak?
What is your level of mechanical, electrical, and computer competency? Can you be trusted to create your own piggyback harness, or do you need help identifying what goes in the hole under the 710 cap?
What have you done to your engine or what are you planning to do, that would require an aftermarket ECU? Please be as specific as possible. - 2003 LS is currently bone stock, only cosmetic upgrades so far and lots of maintenance. Already changed the oil in the engine, transmission (6-speed) and rear diff. New COSMETIC rotors were installs (Adam's rotors) as well as some EBC Yellow pads...and had a second key made. Goal is to make this as zippy as possible without making this the Miata into a wannabee BMW or Honda with 6" inch exhaust outlet. I am solely looking to add more hp throughout the curve, roughly 50hp - 75hp.
Adding a turbo and related parts combined with a new ECU would be ideal, but I live in a state that needs to pass emissions every two years, so a new ECU equals failing. Since this ECU cannot be flashed, like a BMW N54 engine that I have a lot of history with, a piggyback would work, very similar to the JB4 by Burger Tuning that works with the N54 engine. I would love to find a Miata version of the JB4, and that is why I am here, asking that question about a piggyback.
What are the regulations that you need to work around? Are we talking about one of the states where it's easy to find a test station that'll look the other way on some things, or the People's Republic of California, where it's getting increasingly difficult to work around the system, so to speak? - As mentioned above, I live in crappy emissions State, but I would look into forming an LLC in Delaware and registering the car over there, if anyone could share an experience/confirm if it can be done...especially if the FM is the only piggyback around.
What is your level of mechanical, electrical, and computer competency? Can you be trusted to create your own piggyback harness, or do you need help identifying what goes in the hole under the 710 cap? - I tune my audio using Audiotec Fischer's software, and also installed my own audio - using quality parts from places like Micro Precision, Focal, BLAM, Ground Zero and obviously Audiotec Fischer since they are hands down the best car audio producer out there. I am fairly good with mechanical stuff as well, suspension, exhaust and MINOR engine work. AMSOIL went into the 710 Cap hole, and I was looking at the R Theory Motorsports Blue Billet Cap as a replacement Cap, just for the color Blue. This Miata is a father/son project so any blue that can be added to the engine bay will happen, like those blue NGK spark plug wire set that we already added along with new spark plugs.
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12-02-2021, 06:06 PM
#9
You will not find 50hp from a Miata engine with just an ECU change. You will not find 50hp from a Miata engine with an ECU change and the sort of bolt-on mods that will get you flagged for emissions violations in states that actively look for aftermarket parts.
Info here, here, and here
An FM piggyback without an FM turbo kit is a no-go in California, FWIW. Your best bet would probably be to swap back to stock for your biennial exam. I have friends in non-modified cars who have been ticketed for having out-of-state plates beyond their initial 30 days in the state.
Save yourself some money and use a more plebeian oil. This isn't a BMW with a 60k interval rod bearing replacement schedule. Unless your engine is something special AND every single one of your miles is WOT at full load, you're throwing away money.
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12-02-2021, 10:56 PM
#10
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You will not find 50hp from a Miata engine with just an ECU change. You will not find 50hp from a Miata engine with an ECU change and the sort of bolt-on mods that will get you flagged for emissions violations in states that actively look for aftermarket parts.
Info here, here, and here
An FM piggyback without an FM turbo kit is a no-go in California, FWIW. Your best bet would probably be to swap back to stock for your biennial exam. I have friends in non-modified cars who have been ticketed for having out-of-state plates beyond their initial 30 days in the state.
Save yourself some money and use a more plebeian oil. This isn't a BMW with a 60k interval rod bearing replacement schedule. Unless your engine is something special AND every single one of your miles is WOT at full load, you're throwing away money.
Info here, here, and here
An FM piggyback without an FM turbo kit is a no-go in California, FWIW. Your best bet would probably be to swap back to stock for your biennial exam. I have friends in non-modified cars who have been ticketed for having out-of-state plates beyond their initial 30 days in the state.
Save yourself some money and use a more plebeian oil. This isn't a BMW with a 60k interval rod bearing replacement schedule. Unless your engine is something special AND every single one of your miles is WOT at full load, you're throwing away money.
If the FM piggyback is the only one available then I will start to look into registering my Miata in a different state and purchasing an aftermarket ECU, such as the MS3. I am trying to avoid that but if needed I will do that and then start purchasing all of my stuff.
Is FM the only available piggyback?
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12-02-2021, 11:21 PM
#12
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Thanks for this. I will contact AEM to see if they can add anything, but I am thinking of now registering the Car in Taxaxhusettes since they have easier emissions testing than where I live, which appears to be no emissions for a Miata NB.
Diesel Vehicles:
Diesel vehicles are required to undergo emissions testing based on their weight and model year. Vehicles that require testing: Model years 2005 and newer light-duty diesel vehicles (with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating or "GVWR" of 8,500 pounds or less), Model years 2007 and newer medium-duty diesel vehicles (with a GVWR of 8,501 to 14,000 pounds). Model year 1984 and newer, medium- and heavy-duty diesel vehicles (with a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more) not subject to an OBD test.
Exemptions:
1. New vehicles delivered to Massachusetts owners
2. Vehicles 15 years old and older
3. Electric Vehicles
MASSACHUSETTS
Massachusetts performs an OBD emissions test annually on vehicles that are less than 15 years old.Diesel Vehicles:
Diesel vehicles are required to undergo emissions testing based on their weight and model year. Vehicles that require testing: Model years 2005 and newer light-duty diesel vehicles (with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating or "GVWR" of 8,500 pounds or less), Model years 2007 and newer medium-duty diesel vehicles (with a GVWR of 8,501 to 14,000 pounds). Model year 1984 and newer, medium- and heavy-duty diesel vehicles (with a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more) not subject to an OBD test.
Exemptions:
1. New vehicles delivered to Massachusetts owners
2. Vehicles 15 years old and older
3. Electric Vehicles
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12-03-2021, 07:55 AM
#13
mkturbo.com
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Any reason why you don't just swap back to stock once every year or two for emissions? Then throw the standalone back on? It is what hundreds of people do for their testing.
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02-11-2022, 04:30 AM
#14
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Sounds like what you need is a ChipTorque mod to your ECU.
ChipTorque is an Aussie company who were the guys that created the ECU chip for the MX-5 SP - the first Mazda-endorsed MX-5 turbo-charged car available from Mazda dealers in Australia.
They've done a lot of MSM chip modz too.
Send your ECU to ChipTorque, let them know what turbo/exhaust/injector/intercooler you have and they will replace your ECU chip with a custom-programmed one that should pass emissions testing.
They may recommend specific injectors you should use based on the profiles they already have.
It's about A$800 last time I was aware of a price and it's specific to your modz - make any changes and you'll likely need another custom-chip for another A$800 so get all your parts finalised first and make sure you talk to the ChipTorque guys or it'll get expensive.
ChipTorque is an Aussie company who were the guys that created the ECU chip for the MX-5 SP - the first Mazda-endorsed MX-5 turbo-charged car available from Mazda dealers in Australia.
They've done a lot of MSM chip modz too.
Send your ECU to ChipTorque, let them know what turbo/exhaust/injector/intercooler you have and they will replace your ECU chip with a custom-programmed one that should pass emissions testing.
They may recommend specific injectors you should use based on the profiles they already have.
It's about A$800 last time I was aware of a price and it's specific to your modz - make any changes and you'll likely need another custom-chip for another A$800 so get all your parts finalised first and make sure you talk to the ChipTorque guys or it'll get expensive.
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02-14-2022, 10:55 AM
#15
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Two points:
1) The only way to get a new Voodoo Box is to buy a CARB FM turbo kit—they no longer sell it solo due to the CARB certification. You may get lucky and find one for sale used.
2) It'd help to tell us what state you actually live in, because someone may know of a way to get around emissions.
1) The only way to get a new Voodoo Box is to buy a CARB FM turbo kit—they no longer sell it solo due to the CARB certification. You may get lucky and find one for sale used.
2) It'd help to tell us what state you actually live in, because someone may know of a way to get around emissions.
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02-14-2022, 12:04 PM
#16
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[QUOTE=huesmann;1617473]Two points:
1) The only way to get a new Voodoo Box is to buy a CARB FM turbo kit—they no longer sell it solo due to the CARB certification. You may get lucky and find one for sale used.
2) It'd help to tell us what state you actually live in, because someone may know of a way to get around emissions.[/QUOT
I have abandoned the Flying Miata route and ended up grabbing a MS3PNP and have been piecing together parts over the past month. Ordered the Kraken kit - turbo, manifold, intercooler and downpipe. Exhaust coming from Goodwin and a host of little things from hoses to fittings to gauges have all been ordered from different vendors.
I will be registering this Miata in Massachusetts since their emissions is capped at 15 years or newer. Connecticut, where I live, is 25 years or newer.
1) The only way to get a new Voodoo Box is to buy a CARB FM turbo kit—they no longer sell it solo due to the CARB certification. You may get lucky and find one for sale used.
2) It'd help to tell us what state you actually live in, because someone may know of a way to get around emissions.[/QUOT
I have abandoned the Flying Miata route and ended up grabbing a MS3PNP and have been piecing together parts over the past month. Ordered the Kraken kit - turbo, manifold, intercooler and downpipe. Exhaust coming from Goodwin and a host of little things from hoses to fittings to gauges have all been ordered from different vendors.
I will be registering this Miata in Massachusetts since their emissions is capped at 15 years or newer. Connecticut, where I live, is 25 years or newer.
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02-14-2022, 12:04 PM
#17
I’m pretty sure this noob is gone and never coming back, but since this thread was bumped, I re-read it in its entirety and thought I could help clarify for anyone who comes along and finds this in a search later.
Aside from the clear need to articulate your plans so we know what you expect out of a solution and why you’re hell-bent on something that goes against all sanity, I should probably clarify the nomenclature of “piggy back” here.
A “piggy back” like the Voodoo Box is a signal modifier. It’s got some intelligence, but all it can do is take the injector signals your stock ECU is sending and extend them in the presence of boost so that your injectors fire for longer. On an unboosted engine, it won’t do anything. This is also why you are limited to stock injectors with a Voodoo: it cannot be programmed to shorten the injector pulses, so larger injectors will be fired like stock injectors, causing your engine to run rich, if at all.
Which leads to the next point. A piggyback is not programmable or tunable. You get your stock ECU map, plus some boost-referenced injector pulses. Nothing more. Your lambda sensor is still narrow-band, your timing is 100% stock. They’re great for maintaining emissions compliance because at anything other than “in boost”, your engine control is stock. They’re a great low-tech, low-buck solution when CPUs, IO, widebands, and high-quality hardware cost a lot of money.
Today though, cheap system-on-chip processors are a dime a dozen and have incredible capabilities. So there’s no reason to go with a limited solution like a piggyback, unless you’re specifically looking for CARB compliance.
It may be possible to use a conventional aftermarket ECU in a parallel install with your stock ECU. In which case the best advice would be to get the ECU you want and problem-solve your way around whatever it is you need your stock ECU to do. I’m not sure you’ll find much advice on that here, but you can ask.
Aside from the clear need to articulate your plans so we know what you expect out of a solution and why you’re hell-bent on something that goes against all sanity, I should probably clarify the nomenclature of “piggy back” here.
A “piggy back” like the Voodoo Box is a signal modifier. It’s got some intelligence, but all it can do is take the injector signals your stock ECU is sending and extend them in the presence of boost so that your injectors fire for longer. On an unboosted engine, it won’t do anything. This is also why you are limited to stock injectors with a Voodoo: it cannot be programmed to shorten the injector pulses, so larger injectors will be fired like stock injectors, causing your engine to run rich, if at all.
Which leads to the next point. A piggyback is not programmable or tunable. You get your stock ECU map, plus some boost-referenced injector pulses. Nothing more. Your lambda sensor is still narrow-band, your timing is 100% stock. They’re great for maintaining emissions compliance because at anything other than “in boost”, your engine control is stock. They’re a great low-tech, low-buck solution when CPUs, IO, widebands, and high-quality hardware cost a lot of money.
Today though, cheap system-on-chip processors are a dime a dozen and have incredible capabilities. So there’s no reason to go with a limited solution like a piggyback, unless you’re specifically looking for CARB compliance.
It may be possible to use a conventional aftermarket ECU in a parallel install with your stock ECU. In which case the best advice would be to get the ECU you want and problem-solve your way around whatever it is you need your stock ECU to do. I’m not sure you’ll find much advice on that here, but you can ask.
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02-14-2022, 12:21 PM
#18
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I’m pretty sure this noob is gone and never coming back, but since this thread was bumped, I re-read it in its entirety and thought I could help clarify for anyone who comes along and finds this in a search later.
Aside from the clear need to articulate your plans so we know what you expect out of a solution and why you’re hell-bent on something that goes against all sanity, I should probably clarify the nomenclature of “piggy back” here.
A “piggy back” like the Voodoo Box is a signal modifier. It’s got some intelligence, but all it can do is take the injector signals your stock ECU is sending and extend them in the presence of boost so that your injectors fire for longer. On an unboosted engine, it won’t do anything. This is also why you are limited to stock injectors with a Voodoo: it cannot be programmed to shorten the injector pulses, so larger injectors will be fired like stock injectors, causing your engine to run rich, if at all.
Which leads to the next point. A piggyback is not programmable or tunable. You get your stock ECU map, plus some boost-referenced injector pulses. Nothing more. Your lambda sensor is still narrow-band, your timing is 100% stock. They’re great for maintaining emissions compliance because at anything other than “in boost”, your engine control is stock. They’re a great low-tech, low-buck solution when CPUs, IO, widebands, and high-quality hardware cost a lot of money.
Today though, cheap system-on-chip processors are a dime a dozen and have incredible capabilities. So there’s no reason to go with a limited solution like a piggyback, unless you’re specifically looking for CARB compliance.
It may be possible to use a conventional aftermarket ECU in a parallel install with your stock ECU. In which case the best advice would be to get the ECU you want and problem-solve your way around whatever it is you need your stock ECU to do. I’m not sure you’ll find much advice on that here, but you can ask.
Aside from the clear need to articulate your plans so we know what you expect out of a solution and why you’re hell-bent on something that goes against all sanity, I should probably clarify the nomenclature of “piggy back” here.
A “piggy back” like the Voodoo Box is a signal modifier. It’s got some intelligence, but all it can do is take the injector signals your stock ECU is sending and extend them in the presence of boost so that your injectors fire for longer. On an unboosted engine, it won’t do anything. This is also why you are limited to stock injectors with a Voodoo: it cannot be programmed to shorten the injector pulses, so larger injectors will be fired like stock injectors, causing your engine to run rich, if at all.
Which leads to the next point. A piggyback is not programmable or tunable. You get your stock ECU map, plus some boost-referenced injector pulses. Nothing more. Your lambda sensor is still narrow-band, your timing is 100% stock. They’re great for maintaining emissions compliance because at anything other than “in boost”, your engine control is stock. They’re a great low-tech, low-buck solution when CPUs, IO, widebands, and high-quality hardware cost a lot of money.
Today though, cheap system-on-chip processors are a dime a dozen and have incredible capabilities. So there’s no reason to go with a limited solution like a piggyback, unless you’re specifically looking for CARB compliance.
It may be possible to use a conventional aftermarket ECU in a parallel install with your stock ECU. In which case the best advice would be to get the ECU you want and problem-solve your way around whatever it is you need your stock ECU to do. I’m not sure you’ll find much advice on that here, but you can ask.
Now I am waiting on all of the parts to come in from Kraken to then figure out what I am missing and need to buy to complete my set-up...
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02-17-2022, 11:33 AM
#19
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Yes, I am not really on this site unless I need to ask a specific question. I really wanted to be CARB compliant to avoid registering my Miata in a different state, combined with I have zero interest in learning to tune an ECU, but since Flyin Miata abandoned their voodoo box I had to go to Plan B, which was a MS. Hopefully the tuner by will take on my Miata, you know of Derek at Bootleg Tuned?
Now I am waiting on all of the parts to come in from Kraken to then figure out what I am missing and need to buy to complete my set-up...
Now I am waiting on all of the parts to come in from Kraken to then figure out what I am missing and need to buy to complete my set-up...
I hope that you and Derek get along...
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02-17-2022, 11:38 AM
#20
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Same with me - you know if he likes cookies or brownies?
Just an odd reply without any sort of follow-up to you statement as to why a person may not get along with Derek. I had a good call with him a few months back DIYAutotune recommended him as one of their favorite Miata tuners up here in New England.
Just an odd reply without any sort of follow-up to you statement as to why a person may not get along with Derek. I had a good call with him a few months back DIYAutotune recommended him as one of their favorite Miata tuners up here in New England.
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