TSE built motor + turbo finally hits the dyno
 

Well it's been a long time coming. Took my time to try and do the build right and also being a newb first timer i had a lot of learning to do. Car ended up 295hp/290tq after trying to dial things back a little on 93. Had an odd issue from ~4.7-5.5k where the car would boost an extra 1-2psi. Seems to be the wastegate sticking open?

Other than the gate issue car ran flawless. h/t to Andrew for the build. Timing was left extremely conservative i believe peak boost on this run was 18psi. Tuner was working remote and i told him i wanted to be conservative on timing since it will be beat on track. Feedback on timing?


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Solid numbers.

Timing looks real conservative.
I think 100kpa row is too retarded.
And everything under 100kpa doesn look right to me.

Post the build specs.

Looks like you have boost oscillation between 4200-5500rpm.
How are you controlling boost?

200tq at 3000 rpm is amazing. An efr usually hits 200tq at 3200-3400 from all the builds I've seen.
Mine hits 200 at 3300rpm.

Timing table looks like a basemap. I bet there's much gains to be made everywhere. Otherwise nice top end numbers.

Nice top end! What do your injectors and fuel map look like? I am running a similar build with less impressive numbers.

Nothing too special with the build really all just ideas i've taken from M/T pretty much. Built motor by andrew, EF6258, MS3, Skunk2 intake mani and throttle body, ID725's, turbosmart dual port actuator and mac control valve from TSE, Precision 350hp intercooler from TSE, Setrab oil cooler, D585 coils, custom 3" exhaust (Origin Fabrication), etc.. Head is stock. Kmiata PPF delete, diff braces.. MSM 6-speed trans, 4.3 Torsen rear (uhhhhh lol).

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What compression ratio pistons?

What would you use for ~100kpa? Car seemed to run great but timing was indeed meant to be on the conservative side but hopefully not excessively so. We were going off wastegate actually - that spike seems to be the actuator rod binding? Build specs posted above lmk if i missed something

Paging Savington. For some reason i cannot find my original build order - Andrew will know.

You are hitting 18psi on wastegate only? With no electric boost control?
That is one manly Watergate spring you got there!

You probably have 8.6cr pistons if you told Andrew to build a motor for 93 gasoline and not e85.

On my 8.8cr stock 1994 pistons and untouched vvt head I run this timing map.
It's not a conservative map, but look mostly at the 100kpa and under non boosted section and compare to yours.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...a05513f482.jpg

borka, for a naturally aspirated engine, your table is actually fairly aggressive. I usually tune a little more retarded in boost applications, since it does fly through the 100kpa row when transitioning to boost, albeit extremely quickly. In the 100kpa row, or 99 in your case, I run sub 30, probably around 26. So OP, you are a little retarded in that region, but not by much, and it probably won't make any difference to change it. Also Borka, I'm not sure if you were setting timing during that screen shot or what, but I'd get rid of that 10 degrees in the idle cells. It's not bad for idle, but transitioning out and jumping to around 20 degrees can't be too smooth. Plus if you used idle advance to smooth your idle, you'll be in the 0-10 degree range.

OP, your boost oscillation probably comes from the timing jumping 4 degrees right at 4700rpm, and the turbo can finally breath. I'd take everything below 4700 and make it at least 10 degrees and see if that helps.

Very clean build! I like a lot of the details, like the exhaust routing, and whole look of the car, have a cat!

Yea i'm not sure why i'm hitting 18psi on wastegate. The TS-0620-1143 should have a 14psi spring in it.. I've probably done something wrong here - perhaps related to pre-load or other??? Perhaps Andrew could tell me what i screwed up. :noob:

Sorry i'm an idiot. Where are you seeing a 4 degree change? Tuner tried 4-5 different things and the spike stuck at the exact same spot where boost would spike ~2 psi.

18psi is 220, if you look at that row, you go from 6.3 to 10.3 in a relatively short period, 4300-5400rpm.

Note that it's possible to be TOO conservative with timing, especially on track. Go too low and your EGTs will skyrocket and can damage exhaust valves, etc. Not as quick or dramatic as detonation, but still something to be avoided.

Did the tuner tell you how many degrees off MBT it is? My map is about 6 degrees more advanced than yours in most of the boosted cells, but that's not an apples-to-apples comparison (built 99 motor, P&P head, GTX2863R, 9:1 pistons, 100 octane). I tuned my car to 2 degrees off MBT for safety.

Nice looking build!

--Ian

Looks fun, besides the oscillation the torque looks pretty flat from early on. Is that a custom built heatshield? It looks awesome and I want one.

Yes - custom built heatshield by my friend at Origin Fabrication.

Yea that was my concern as well. He did not tell me how many degrees off MBT it is - actually this is the first time i've heard of MBT i need to do some more reading on it.

I run a similar map to borka in boost but with an extra 5-7 degrees in the 250kpa row but Im running 8.6 compression on 94oct with water/meth injection. I still have room for more timing but Im waiting on a larger water nozzle and some dyno time.

Sick build, looks really well sorted out!

Imma go semi conservative on the boostness. I don’t want much more than 230-250 hp.

Gonna well the shit out of the old engine when I’m done scavving it. Lol

Sell, not well, goddamn autocorrect.

MBT is minimum timing for best torque. Basically you put the car on the dyno, set it to run straight across a single row, and advance the timing until the power stops increasing (or it pings). That's MBT. Then you back it off from there by a bit for safety.

What the actual MBT value will be depends on a whole bunch of things (backpressure, cams, cam timing, boost level, RPM, etc), so you pretty much have to determine it experimentally for each engine config. That's basically what 80-90% of power dyno tuning is all about.

--Ian

100kpa row should generally be 29-30 ish between 5000-6500. Taper down towards lower RPMs.

Cruise cells at low load can be 40 or more for fuel economy (not so important for a track car).

Yup

18psi sure is a good number aint it?

Everything looks super solid to me. The ziptie between the oil feed line and the crankcase breather is going to last about 45 seconds on track ;) There should be enough length in the oil feed line to route it around the outside of everything and around the forward edge of the heat shield.

Aside from that, there are a ton of nice details here. Well done. :party:

Thanks. That zip tie was temporary while the heat shield was built. I've since re-clocked the oil line so no support is necessary. Do you have a pic of the routing you usually use? Mine is still going backwards towards the firewall

Nice build. I should post pictures of my EFR build too. I am lazy.

How are you feeding air to the oil cooler in that location? I was thinking about placing mine there to have better flow for radiator but I am giving my set up a try first. Oil temps are great on hard canyon runs, no track yet.
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Your build looks really cool. I am curious to know on your setup with as much air going in and going out of the skunk2 .5L plenum spacer would yield any gains.

Looks fantastic.

LOTs of great ducting work there which I'm going to borrow for my eventual ducting work.

I do have a couple of suggestions though which may or may not be beneficial so please respond accordingly guys, I tend to be paranoid and over-analyse things:

1. The intercooler bounces around a bit due to its horizontal supports being silicone hoses.

In some of those photos, it looks like the intercooler touches your intercooler or is very close to it.
This means that the intercooler will be constantly banging against the ducting (this may damage the ducting and enlarge the bolt holes).
You could either add a rubber edge to the ducting where it contacts the intercooler or, on the base of the ducting, add 2-3 U-shaped brackets that the intercooler can sit between to limit its horizontal motion (or match the ducting's horizontal motion).



2. The gap above your intercooler will mean that more air will flow into that gap to the radiator, over the intercooler, and you'll end up with positive pressure between the intercooler and radiator.
With positive pressure, even less air will flow through the intercooler so it will be less effective.

You can minimise this by adding a "roof" on top of the intercooler that angles downward to the bottom 3rd (or lower) of the radiator, creating 2 chambers between the intercooler and radiator.
The top chamber will flow fresh air to radiator - that's good and the high pressure generated will not affect the lower intercooler chamber..
The lower chamber will flow pre-heated air that has passed through the intercooler to the radiator but the lower chamber will be less pressurised than your existing solution so more air will flow through the intercooler.
If you vent this chamber straight under the car, or to your brake ducts, you'll get even more air flow through the intercooler.

Whoops, ... stupid double-post!

There's a lot of rings in that room. Who's shooting the wand? :)

--Ian

While reading this post I was eaten by a grue.

The intercooler is rigidly mounted to the chassis it's not being supported by the intercooler piping. The ducting is also rigidly mounted to the chassis as well if you look at the photos. Could the entire design be further optimized? Yes. Is it necessary for the 250-300hp range? Unlikely. I appreciate the feedback though

Thanks Andrew.

Gotcha regarding the intercooler - I didn't notice the intercooler brackets above its barbs that bolt onto the chassis and assumed it was being suspended from above (which it can't be now since you've removed those sections that are used when mounting an intercooler this way).

Regarding air flow/pressure, it may not be an issue but keep it at the back of your mind if you start noticing heat-soak issues (ie. lack of power in one track session vs the previous one, most likely to occur on hot days).
This was one of the issues that was pointed out to me when I installed my BEGi air scoop which funnelled fresh air from under the intercooler to the radiator - it made sense to me that less air would flow through the intercooler due to the positive pressure between the intercooler and radiator so I removed it (another reason was that it hung quite low so was prone to being ripped off every time I went over a speed hump).

Also, what thickness is the aluminium that you're using?
I'm guessing 2.5mm (0.0984252") or 3.0mm (0.11811") - (sorry, I don't know how to express small measurements in inches, Australia moved on from the antiquated UK imperial system in 1974).
In the past I've used 3.0mm aluminium when I need wall rigidity but these days find I can get away with 2.5mm which is a lot easier to bend, weighs less and is cheaper.
With 2.0mm (0.0787402") aluminium, I find I need additional bracing to eliminate flexing.

Almost done here. Opted to use the splitter mounts from Racebred with an adapter plate to the chassis and they work great. Splitter mounts shown backwards in photo.https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f8ef1a9d1.jpeg

Splitter still had a bit too much flex so a small supporting aluminum frame was made.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...230b43620.jpeg

New overflow tank almost done.
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wow. Great work.

Coming from George Washington that's high praise. Car finally making it to the track this weekend.
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Still alive?

I am about to embark on ducting my own car. What did you bolt the ducting to on the car? I see that the panels are bolted together but I cant see how you attached it to the car itself.