1.6 450whp or bust
 

Been doing a healthy amount of research on here and a handful of other sites. Lots of man hours surfing the web and sifting to build threads. Both relevant and irrelevant information and a plethora of fail lol.

I've decided it's time to set out a build plan and etch some goals out for my car. Lots of research has lead me to purchasing my miata. Superior power to weight possibility, coupled with aggressive handling and a potent power plant to build from. The positive remarks go on and on etcetera etcetera....

So as far as my choosing to build the 1.6 it's simple... I have a hoard of 1.6's to choose from locally. As well as two spare long blocks in the workshop. I know I will probably get flamed pretty bad for wanting to stick with the 1.6 over swapping a 1.8 in.

Motor will be machined and assembled in stages. Any insight on some of the parts I have thought about using as well as criticism both positive and negative will be reviewed.

The head is going to get the works. Port and polish, bowl work, deshrouded valves, and so on.

1.6 93 head full port and polish
Kelford 272 cams
Supertech dual valve springs and retainers
Supertech 1mm oversized exhaust valves (to help spool)
Supertech intake valves (high flow)
Solid lifter conversion including shim under bucket
New seals and valve guides
Shaved to square and clearanced for the cams

Now for the block
1.6 93 block
Fresh hone
Complete rebuild using eom gaskets and seals
Cometic head gasket
Arp head studs
Arp main studs
Arp 2000 rod bolts
Pro-gram Billet main caps
Cp forged pistons 9.0:1 cr
Manley h-beam rods
Stock crank
Ati super damper pulley
Underdrive water pump pulley
Underdrive alternator pulley

Fuel:
Dw1000 injectors
Fuel lab afpr
Dual feed fuel rail
Custom -an fuel lines from tank to rail
E85 inline fuel filter
Aeromotive stealth 340lph fuel pump

Ecu:
Mspnp either DIY from someone on here or a complete assembled pnp from diyautotune.com
Cop conversion using ls2 coils
Inline coolant temp sensor with custom adapter
Gm Iat mod
Variable tps
Modified trigger wheel?? Maybe
Ebc and lc-1 wideband

Now the go fast parts
Turbo selection to date is a gt3582r twin scroll hotside anti-surge compressor housing (moar powahh)
Custom tubular style manifold
44mm wastegate (10psi spring)
Quick spool valve
Full 3" v-band downpipe
4" custom v-band from dp to muffler?
High flow cat?
Bar and plate fmic 30x12x4 3" in/out
3" hotside piping 2 1/2" coldside piping
Turboxs bov
Vanjen intercooler couplers throughout
Custom honda intake manifold

This is by no means a complete list, merely a rough draft of the masterpiece to be assembled under the hood. The driveline will get the usual 6spd swap and 3.9 Torsen rear end with rx7 clutch type diff. 15x9 ccw wheels haven't decided on rubber yet. Fully adjustable suspension all the way around. Autokonexion complete wide body kit including fastback top and Goodwin racing gtc-200 wing.

There's the plan. Have at it. Scold, criticize, compliment, whatever it may be. I have had a hand in building quite a few one-off track Demons and strip monsters. I've always wanted something to call my own that I can pour my blood sweat and tears into. Not new to fabrication and I'm by no means slow to learn. Hopefully I'll get a few views by some pretty knowledgable people. TEACH ME YOUR WAYS!! That is all

wtf man?

Very interested in this rx-7 clutch type Torsen. You've done some impressive research, that's for sure.

I know the S4 Rx7 TII diff is a clutch type LSD, but you say you'll have a 6 speed with a torsen?

Brain had an awesome writeup on what LSD setups can be used here:https://www.miataturbo.net/useful-saved-posts-8/diy-faq-all-your-answers-one-big-post-10821/
Will take some doing but I think the rx7 clutch type will be better suited for my goals.

I have also been doing some research on tuning failsafes. I know that running e85 will leave me with some headroom as far as timing is concerned. I want to come up with a way to detect "lean events" and knock a lot sooner then when I disassemble a blown motor.

I came across this multiple input LCD get gauge

http://thesensorconnection.com/gauge...yrometer-gauge

That, coupled with four individual egt sensors welded onto the individual runners on my tubular manifold will allow to monitor egt's per cylinder in real-time

You really need idiot lights. You will never be able to watch those gauges.

Dann

Not so much of an idiot light as it would be assistive to tuning. Being able to closely monitor individual egt's could prove very useful for sensing lean burn conditions. If there was a way to wire in a warning system from the gauge to the ecu to trip it into limp mode I'm not sure. Would certainly save a substantial amount of money being spent on machining and internal components of my motor.

Best of luck...

Still trying to track down info on a decent/proven catch can setup. And wondering is there are any distinct advantages to a v-mount intercooler on a street car.

1.6L with a 35R and Kelford 272s? That will drive real nice :party:

I know I'm not doing anything new here, just trying to gain as much information as possible before final assembly takes place. I want to do it once and do it right. And reliability is certainly desired but sacrifices have to be made especially with the power goals I'm shooting for

Just curious - how much do you think this will cost you?

Not entirely sure as of yet, a lot of parts are being sourced new so that's going to be a bit more pricey but not having to use someone else's "throw away" parts is a plus. I'm guessing somewhere around 4-5k plus machining just for the motor. Another 3200 for the wide body and fastback conversion. 2500 for rims and suspension. 800 for tranny and rear end. 500 for random odds and ends.

Been doing a healthy amount of research on this thread. Lots of milliseconds skimming the posts. All irrelevant information and a plethora of fail lol.

Fucking comedy gold right here.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397822339

Ultimately what I intend to do with the car probably doesn't conform with what is normally expected. A lot of autox and hill climbing guys on here as well as serious drivers and enthusiasts. I more or less want a car with power closer to to top of the power band. More of a freeway runner then a canyon carver. Just an all around enjoyable platform with room for improvement if I ever wanted to get serious about autox or track days.

Hmm. You seemed more like a power bottom to me.

To put it plainly I had two options. 1) Go out and purchase a new Evo or STI and spend the next 7 years and 45k paying for a stock vehicle. 2) Spend less then a third of that on doing something I enjoy, wrenching on my project, and end up with a spirited roadster that I've built with my own two hands.

This has been the only site where viable and intelligent information has been well documented and shared. Which is 90% of the reason I registered. Albeit getting that information takes some finesse and effort. In the end it's worth it to receive the know-how to get it done properly the first time and learn from others who have walked the unbeaten path before me.

Let me help you help yourself save a whole bunch of money an end up with something that doesnt have a 1000 rpm wide powerband.


1.6 93 head full port and polish stock vvt head
Kelford 272 cams
Supertech dual valve springs and retainers
Supertech 1mm oversized exhaust valves (to help spool)
Supertech intake valves (high flow)
Solid lifter conversion including shim under bucket
New seals and valve guides
Shaved to square and clearanced for the cams

Now for the block
1.6 93 block 1.8 block
Fresh bore hone
Complete rebuild using eom gaskets and seals
Cometic OEM head gasket
Arp head studs
Arp main studs
Arp 2000 rod bolts
Pro-gram Billet main caps
Cp forged pistons 9.0:1 cr supertech pistons, 8.6:1 CR
Manley h-beam rods
Stock crank
Ati super damper pulley 949 racing super miata damper
Underdrive water pump pulley
Underdrive alternator pulley
Boundary Engineering street/strip VVT oil pump
DIY coolant reroute with BEGI spacer, KIA neck, and caddy hose

Fuel:
Dw1000 injectors Injector dynamics or FIC 1000's or 1300's
Fuel lab afpr
Dual feed fuel rail
Custom -an fuel lines from tank to rail stock lines from tank to rail
E85 inline fuel filter stock fuel filter
Aeromotive stealth 340lph fuel pump Wally 400E85 fuel pump, rewired

Ecu:
Mspnp either DIY from someone on here or a complete assembled pnp from diyautotune.com MS3e from MS Labs
Cop conversion using ls2 coils
Inline coolant temp sensor with custom adapter stock coolant sensor
Gm Iat mod
Variable tps stock NB tps
Modified trigger wheel?? Maybe 36-1 trigger wheel
Ebc and lc-1 wideband

Now the go fast parts
Turbo selection to date is a gt3582r twin scroll hotside anti-surge compressor housing (moar powahh) EFR6758, single scroll housing
Custom tubular style manifold
44mm wastegate (10psi spring)
Quick spool valve
Full 3" v-band downpipe, or 3.5" if you can fit it
4" 3" custom v-band from dp to muffler?
High flow cat? No cat
Bar and plate fmic 30x12x4 3" 2.5" in/out
3" 2.5" hotside piping 2 1/2" coldside piping
Turboxs bov
Vanjen ebay intercooler couplers throughout
Custom honda intake manifold VICS or flatop intake manifold

OP
I'm sure you hear this every day, but I'll say it again:

you are an idiot.

Quality control bot needs to closely monitor this thread.

I wouldn't use a 35r unless I was aiming to make a minimum of 600 hp.

You're dyno will look like this
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397826671

It wont spool nearly that well on a 1.6

you guys are making crazy assumptions that he'll even get far enough to dyno this retarded plan of a setup

I am all for you doing whatever the hell you want to do, but in my opinion you are using your "availability of 1.6 motors locally" as an excuse to make your life suck.

1.6 is a cool motor, and having many 1.6's around is a good thing. But you only need ONE. I was able to pick up a (non-vvt) 1.8 motor assembly (everything but exhaust manifold) for about $400 local. Even if you are getting the 1.6's for free, I don't see the math working out in your favor. You spent all this time doing research, why blow your wad on a questionable initial decision when you have already proven you have the patience to plan? Keep an eye out, let people know what your budget is and you will find a 1.8 that is in decent shape for cheap eventuallly. Ideally you would find a full powertrain with 6-speed and maybe more for a big discount over buying the trans on it's own.

Whatever you do, good luck. I just think that you will be spending a LOT of money and won't be happy with the results. Have you ever ridden in (or better yet driven) a 300hp Miata?

How many 1.6 blocks to you plan to use on this build? How are the extras lying around in your garage going to help? Wouldn't it be better to add $500 to your $15k build and start with a 1.8? You'd have better power up top, there is literally no downside to it.

i lol'ed at the fuel system

But guys, he did a lot of research, he knows what he's doing.

HERP DERP

We need a meme for telling people to just get a 1.8 when they tell us they're going to build a 1.6.

OP, just get a 1.8 and build it once... ;)

This thread is going to turn into eggplant real quick.

lol, and i thought my 1.6 was laggy with the greddy turbo.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397832374

:brain:

Too late.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397831283

OP: Ok ok guys, I give up. I will build a 1.8...
...by boring out a 1.6 and offset grinding the crank, getting custom pistons and rods...

:laugh:

Well you would save ~50 pounds off the nose of the car. Just be sure to put a Z6-VE head on it please.

how to build a 450hp 1.6L:

$3200 body kit

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397831954

Dann

I have not driven a 400hp+ miata. My "passenger seat experience" was limited to an ls swapped miata. Granted it's a profoundly different setup then a high psi 4cylinder. I'm going to try my best to take your criticisms with a grain of salt. I'm new to miata's. Fairly new to Mazda in general for that matter. Only other Mazda I've owned besides my 06' and 08' mazda3 was an 88' rx7 convertible with a tII swap. So be gentle. I appreciate the "editing" of my build thread though. The 1.8 vs 1.6 comparison has been beaten to death. This early in my build, most of the parts I've purchased thus far are compatible with either motor. Tracking one down would prove difficult but not impossible. Keep it coming guys, criticism is always welcome.

An LS swapped miata at 400hp is a bit different then a 450hp turbo 1.6. Like the LS one would be fun on the street, the 1.6l turbo would not be fun. The LS miata will spin tires at 1.5k rpms in any gear, the 1.6l turbo will spin tires at 6500rpms.

We are shitting on you because you are choosing the absolute worst way to build a miata motor. Go buy a 1.8 VVT motor for about $1000 on ebay and start with that. You will have a much easier time of making power, spool whatever huge ass turbo you get faster, and have a much better mid range. Honestly what you should do is just call Savington at TSE and buy one of his built bottom ends, then have him mate a 949Racing CNC VVT head onto the bottom. You will then have a build motor that will take whatever you want to throw at it done correctly by some of the people who know how to build high hp miata motors in the nation.

Also here is your eggplant.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397833431

Don't know what all the bitching is about. Beyond some herrafrushness in that mod list at this guy is not asking how many power cards he needs, can it be done with a MP62 for low-end TQ, if Hypers reroute is any good, how much boost the stock sway bars are good for etc.

OP. I think most of the doubts in here probably come from the fact that we don't think you have/will spend the necessary funds to make this happen. I have built several perfect mod lists in my head and actually done none of them.

Suggestion: Check out EFR series turbos.

Related: I doubt you are going to need a 44MM wastegate. The 1.6 is going to be working pretty hard to spool a large turbo that presumably has a pretty wide open AR. Your back pressure on a tubular mani is not going to be an issue and a 38MM Tial will probably be fine and perhaps make packaging easier. OR, just get the damned EFR with integrated wastegate and BOV, and see how that goes.

Torsen diff means you don't have a clutch type diff. Clutch type diff means you don't have a torsen. They are different types of diff. 3.9 gears are a good idea with either.

EDIT:
Or just do what the above poster suggested. Spend less than 45K by quite a margin, and save your sanity. That's probably the best suggestion ever.

ACTUALLY. Now that I think on it, the best suggestion ever is to get in on the group buy of the new K24 swap stuff and build a monster K-powered Miata. Seriously. If you want something unique or whatever, that's a way, way, way better path than a 1.6.

Build a 500hp F2T Miata just to piss Concealer off.

Probably should have clarified on the differential set up. I have a spare clutch type LSD from my previous rx7 build. I intend to purchase a separate 1.8 Torsen rear end then have to option to test out either setup. I understand there is a difference in steer-in while cornering with a clutch type over Torsen. Half the fun of building a high horsepower car for me is assembling as much of it as I can. If I had the skills required and the equipment I would do the machining as well. I'll look into TSE for the short block and see if I can come up with anything locally in the way of purchasing a 1.8. Is there any presented difficulty with tuning the VVT portion? The closest I've come to something similar was the v-tec timing on the 08' civic si I had a while back. Apples to oranges I'm sure. I also wasn't aware that the Borg Warner efr turbos had the bov built in along with the wastegate. Would surely simplify a lot of the routing for those components separately.

even if you miraculously did build this unicorn of a car
all it would do is spin wheels and scare the bejezus out of you

FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE HERE, BRO

Not terribly. Plenty of people here have done it with good results. Some Most modern Megasquirt options have the ability to control VVT natively.

I'm actually surprised this thread is getting serious responses when this guy is literally a textbook example of a n00b jumping in saying he wants a 450whp miata.

The likelihood of even a proper 350whp build happening here is slim.

It probably wouldn't be getting these responses if he were planning a 1.8 build. But we're always eager to correct someone who is wrong.

The only reason I am continuing to reply is because he isn't reacting all indignantly and is actually asking questions. I mean, he at least came here with a megasquirt in his build list and a lot of his build is decent.

Yeah, gotta give him that: at least he's not getting butthurt.

Perhaps there is still hope

Willingness to learn is what creates success. That and the ability to take critique and see the positive notes inside of it. I really appreciate all the input I've gotten this far. Everybody was a "noob" as some point. Obviously there is a lot of room for improvement to get to an enjoyable power level efficiently. And from what's been explained so far a lot cheaper then I had originally though. Hell, main caps and cams removed from the equation save around a grand at least

How do you propose to build a 6 speed from a Miata to hold 450whp? That hasn't been done yet either.

Yes to modern engineering and EFR turbo that can make 450whp and still spool really well. No to old-tech incorrectly sized turbo with quick spool valve.

Seriously, the things Leafy corrected in his post were pretty much spot-on. You can give or take on the 1.8vvt versus the 1.6 if you really want. The injectors will need to be bigger than 1000cc and better than DW to make it idle well.

why would you ruin a good torsen in this manner?

Soviets 6 speed seems to be holding together and was run at more than 450hp. I dont think its a massive deal as long as you keep your foot out of it in 4th gear and have some mechanical empathy.

Once you get away from "spec sheet racing" and actually go off of what is enjoyable you will find that you will find fare more enjoyment out of far lower numbers. It's good to have goals but it's also important to know what those goals represent and what you will be giving up if you attain them. You might not be any happier hitting a magic number.

This is why I have given real advice along with a ribbing. He came in with a somewhat decent list of what he wanted to do. After us tearing it apart he has stuck around and not gotten upset. So while a newb, he is at least one with thick skin. Honestly if he makes the changes that we have recommended he will be well on his way to having a good setup.

Why? I'll still shit all over it. People have done pretty much 500hp through a stock F2T. I'm building my motor. You think i'm going to stop at 500? :dealwithit::party::vash2:

bro you better get on that then bro, you've been talking about crazy hp glory for months now ;)

He also said in his thread that he doesn't really drive it because he's waiting for a transmission that WILL hold the power.


Yeah, it'll be another year or two of talking, too. I'm busy with other things. I have this stupid built BP turbo Miata to deal with first.

I AM testing a built F2T head for things shortly, though. Going in for a valve job this weekend. So don't worry princess, F2T power will happen sooner rather than later. It'll just be in FWD form. I'm not made of money, and if i was, i wouldn't be fucking with Mazdas. :bowrofl:

This is the best thing i've ever seen.