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1.8 Engine (re)build--noob. Help Welcomed
Had a few miatas, none turboed.
Got a turbo kit got a cherry miata installed mkturbo kit sent a few rods through the oil pan within 3 miles (was breaking in new clutch so wasn't cranking on it. Autotune was running and afr/temps were spot on) So now I'm building another engine, and NOT tuning this one. I'm in southern PA if there are any shops relatively local or any ms3pro tuners around that are willing to tune/learn me how to do it please let me know!! This is mainly me laying out my ideas and keeping track of what I F-ck up. Parts list I just installed- -949 clutch (puck sprung) -Flowforce COP kit -Flowforce 640cc injectors -cooler NGK plugs gapped at .033 -MSPNPpro -mazdaspeed motor mounts and new diff mounts -5x bronze shifter rebuild kit -949/csf all aluminum rad (not crossflow) -949 coolant reroute -stage 8 turbo hardware PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CRITIQUE ME. Much rather have internet hate than the feeling of blowing up another engine. Goal is to build engine to handle 250-275 WHP reliable and never deal with it again. Not planning on tracking it but buy once cry once. and not worry if I do take to the track. I have the MKturbo full kit. Was debating on getting a legitimate Garrett turbo (mine is oil cooled, not oil and water so that's good from what i've read) but not sure of the size. When the car was running for 3 short miles, the spool would be pretty good around 3K (again wasn't beating on it) so that seems good for now? I'm going to get a newer long block and take apart/clean up/slight build/put in/hope to not blow up again. Parts are looking to be: Ebay rods with arp studs 3/8" ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/MANLEY-H-Be...YAAOSwridaA1T5 ) Supertech 8.6 CR Pistons ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/WISECO-K553...-/252163813208 ) Wiseco rings non race bearings?? ACL?? New oem oil pump Clean the oil passageways https://www.miataturbo.net/general-m...removal-95289/ OEM gaskets and timing kit. All gaskets will be OEM. (right?) Will probably have the same shop take a look at the head. Is there anything to do in there while it's apart that's worth doing? I will probably do valve guide seals while it's off. Anything else? I know I'll need to wait for the shop to measure the crank and check for bearing size, but does this look like a good start? Thanks for the help Pic for your enjoyment... https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...976278a934.png |
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Out of curiosity I have to ask to see your time. If you weren't beating on it, I jus wonder what could have caused such destruction.
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I'll show you anything you want :)
When it happened, my uncle was riding with me and said "what was that" I said "a blown up engine" he said "why, you weren't even into it?" LMK what you'd like to see, and I'm tearing apart another block to build and don't want to go through this again |
You broke rods. The main 2 reasons when they break is too much power or severe detonation.
Since you said you were not pushing it, then that leaves detonation as the cause. Post your tune file for others to inspect. how many psi did you see on the boost gauge? |
Are you sure the base timing was set right?
Third reason rods fail is stretch from overrevving, often from a missed shift. Sometimes it is a delayed failure. |
8 Attachment(s)
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...567ba4479d.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...a1c82f1fc7.png https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...369d985628.png https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...cf77345672.png https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...04af11b314.png https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...bcb4662429.png This should be attached. I'm not sure if it's *current* as I was running auto tune and the car blew while running it. I shut it off as soon as I heard the bang. @sixshooter I can't answer to what happened to it 141K before I owned it, but it was super clean and ran great. I also had a new clutch and needed to bed brakes in, so I was not hard on it at al, just wanted to really drive it around to break the clutch in first, then brakes while letting autotune do it's thing. Had sunoco 93 in it after running it to E, then rean the 93 to 1/4 tank then put the turbo on, so very confident it had 93 octane. I used the base DIY autotune map and was adapting. For the timing, I set to 10 degrees fixed and had to adjust MS to 2.1 to get it dead nuts, then reverted back to Use Table. As for boost, My gauge was jumping around and I didn't feel confident in it. But the wastegate actuator was to have an 8PSI spring. It's a full MKturbo kit and i had the vacuum line to the top port of the wastegate actuator. Already ordered a MAC valve EBC for the rebuild. Also will be welding some vacuum bungs into the intercooler piping below the throttle body so I'm sure it's accurate going forward. |
That'll do it. Your VE table isn't scaled for boost.
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Originally Posted by SpartanSV
(Post 1565463)
That'll do it. Your VE table isn't scaled for boost.
So the Baro upper limit should be around 210 Kpa? Or is it the fuel load? I will have this engine tuned by someone...not making that mistake again. so close..... |
"I used the (wrong) base DIY autotune map" Was that map preloaded and were they aware you were turbocharging the car or did you load it? If you loaded that map was it was mislabeled as a turbo base map? Look at it this way, you get to learn how to rebuild an engine and wont' be limited to ~250 RWHP/torque.
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I've seen a lot of conflicting info, but the last thing I've read is that "the base map was based on a stock MSM" so they are turboed running 8 ish psi. That should have put me at the wastegate spring level and didn't think I had to mess with other things.
That's probably my biggest "complaint" is that there is a lot of conflicting info. Like the Cranking Advance. Mine was set at like 15 or 18. There have been several people saying that's too much and will ruin the starter. Then saw a post from Matt saying that their number is fine..so I have no idea. When I was under boost, my AFR's were fat. Rolling on the throttle from 2K to 4500 I was reading low 12's, so that made me thing my AFR was fine. Coolant temp never got above 180 F. Having half the VE fuel deal makes sense, but also doesn't. If it was that lean, wouldn't it heat up? So thats where I'm really confused but am going to work with someone who's done this before. Well that's the plan. |
The MS will keep injecting fuel, but if it goes above the max fuel table row, it'll just use it's last known volume. Just as a reminder N/A cars are at 100kpa at WOT. So above 100kpa is "boost". Your fuel table ends at 100, your ignition table ends at 250kpa, or 22psi of boost. That being said, your ignition table is still kinda crap. I'd expect around 28 degrees at 100kpa, you're at 33. Your next row is a little high for me, 7psi, but whatever, MS interpolates. I'd expect that to be 14-20 depending on how conservative you want to be. You're at 29.5. You've got a very aggressive timing map. Like forged engine and race fuel map. Your fuel map should be very smooth too, it's not. Huge peaks and valleys that aren't helping anything. Remember that's supposed to be your engine's efficiency. More efficient=more fuel. The difference between 55 and 60kpa is basically nothing. Yet at 3700 for example, you're saying your engine needs 25% less fuel.
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Gents,
thanks for much for the help. I’ve been trying to read and understand but still in that crawling phase. I appreciate you guys that can do this in your sleep weighing in on my clusterfuc* |
Where do people get these garbage "Base Maps" ????
If DIYAUTOTUNE provides these, then shame on them. I would expect a base map to at least have properly scaled tables, and a sane conservative timing table. for example, when i bought a MS2e from MSLabs, the base map Rev gave me all the tables were scaled properly, the timing table worked AS IS, and it got the car started and running. Then autotune took care of most of the rest. |
@borka that was my understanding. “This will be close to what you need and auto tune will make it nice and safe. Don’t mess with ignition unless you know what you’re doing. “
I am not saying I did everything 100% but expected a few of the important variable to be “pre adjusted” and was quite bummed when she blew. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...bb1e6daf0.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...be32e73fe.jpeg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b0a6c59bc.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f72668a06.jpeg |
That's incredible. That's a naturally aspirated tune.
A proper tune will have scaling well above 100kpa for IGN and VE tables. Often it will go to 200 or 250kpa. Someone owes you an explanation and an apology. |
Wiseco rings --- check Clean the oil passageways https://www.miataturbo.net/general-m...removal-95289/ --- Engine builder says he's familiar with that. OEM gaskets and timing kit. All gaskets will be OEM. (right?) --- Ordered |
You don't need shims for the oil pump. They don't increase the operating volume or pressure for most. It increases stress on the pump when the engine is cold, mostly.
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Engine builder said to go with oem sizes. That should be good news on the life of the new engine. All parts ordered + timing belt kit and water pump through Track Day Parts. Check him out for some damn good prices.
https://m.facebook.com/TRACKDAYPARTS.US/ |
Originally Posted by sixshooter
(Post 1565780)
You don't need shims for the oil pump. They don't increase the operating volume or pressure for most. It increases stress on the pump when the engine is cold, mostly.
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Originally Posted by Blysccr
(Post 1565838)
can I remove those without voiding the warranty?
If they havent shipped it yet they may be able to swap. Otherwise, they may offer an exchange (ie: you send back the unopened shimmed pump, they send you what you want) Short answer, call the retailer/maufacturer. |
They’re just the washers under the return spring AFAIK. Remove the cotter pin, remove a shim, replace cotter pin.
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Originally Posted by curly
(Post 1565858)
They’re just the washers under the return spring AFAIK. Remove the cotter pin, remove a shim, replace cotter pin.
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Originally Posted by sixshooter
(Post 1565873)
This. Easy.
Sweet easy peasy. Parts will be here tomorrow. yay! Any reason to mess with the oil squirters? Seems on Wisecos people remove due to consistent metallurgy and expansion rates, but to me more oil seems like a good thing? |
The most important thing with oil squirters and pistons is whether or not they make contact with each other. Aftermarket pistons are made a different shape than stock. Some say oil passages in the pistons make a difference in consumption but I've not seen it matter. Cooling matters for detonation, though.
There are many opinions. |
👍 I’ll pass that along to my shop.
in addition to the passageways, any other miata tricks I should share? Hopefully dropping the parts off tomorrow. Depending on fedex. |
4 Attachment(s)
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Been thinking about maps a bit. Haven't heard back from a potential tuner yet. Still have time, going to drop parts off to the machine shop Monday. Shifting gears a little and finishing up the 4 link and coilovers on my jeep. Going to leave this here. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6e147dea26.png https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...dd8cd5c394.png https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...35f3fca43f.png |
Shop would be done with my engine if Tasca was shipping parts normally. Can't get a hold of them #rona2020
Found a tuner Looking for an e85 sensor so I'll be messing with that now too. yay What is a going price for a used EFR6258 and Fab9 manifold and downpipe? Thanks! |
IIRC fab9 manifold means larger vband a/r exhaust housing which means you don't want it on your Miata.
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Are you saying an EFR6258 won't be ideal on an nb?
Originally Posted by SpartanSV
(Post 1566374)
IIRC fab9 manifold means larger vband a/r exhaust housing which means you don't want it on your Miata.
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0.64 A/R on the T25 6258 housing, the smallest V Band housing is a 0.85 A/R
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Originally Posted by msmola2002
(Post 1566505)
0.64 A/R on the T25 6258 housing, the smallest V Band housing is a 0.85 A/R
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ahhh gotcha. Didn't see those options on their site, assumed there was one option on the 6258. Thanks for that!
Originally Posted by msmola2002
(Post 1566505)
0.64 A/R on the T25 6258 housing, the smallest V Band housing is a 0.85 A/R
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Radium fuel rail
external fpr 10 micron in-line -an filter -an fuel line/fittings good screw on hard line adapters return style fuel system Dw200 radium catch can single setup ebc gm flex fuel sensor added to the list. added some gold tape too! Bling. also going to be welding the bung for turbo oil drain into the pan -10 bung and use a -8 adapter. For now. made a sweet oil pan baffle too. also busted my tooth through my lip today working on the Jeep. Talk about just pissing you off. missing anything....else? https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6aed86072.jpeg Took forever to get my oem gasket kit in, but was dropped at the machine shop today. My guy wasn’t there but the crank is balanced, block cleaned and squared up. Head taken apart, cleaned, 3 angle valve job done. |
Going to do my return style fuel system tomorrow. I'm assuming that I'm supposed to pull the stock regulator out of the tank. Will have a fuelab regulator in the engine bay. Will do more research on that.
I'm planning on going Fuel pump > screw in adapter > -6an line > 10 micron fuel filter > -6an line > GM Ethanol sensor > -8 an fuel line > radium fuel rail > -6an fuel line > fuelab 515 FPR > -6an > screw in adapter > return in tank viola |
1- doing this without an engine in the car for the first time is hard
2- ask me how to spend wayyy too much on doing this 3- probably should have just got the fab9 kit 4- anyone find a good source for the body and carpet clips to replace the ones I rage broke? G032-68-865A-39 but seem to be discontinued. Sweet. https://www.tascaparts.com/auto-part...rear-body-scat |
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...02dd32e05.jpeg
Didn’t clean enough area at 9 o’clock. But welded inside and out. -AN10 enlarged to 9/16”. -10 to -8 adapter for my Wuhan Wirlyboi. -10 for potential EFR. |
Are these the clips you're talking about?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MAZDA-Miata...53.m2749.l2649 If so, they worked great for me. Follow their instructions and fold the tabs in with pliers or they'll be a little too stiff at first. |
Yes, well same clip, I just need tan.
Originally Posted by curly
(Post 1568132)
Are these the clips you're talking about?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MAZDA-Miata...53.m2749.l2649 If so, they worked great for me. Follow their instructions and fold the tabs in with pliers or they'll be a little too stiff at first. |
You could always Rit dye them.
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I’ll have to get some ordered, thanks guys.
“While I’m in there”.... 15x10 Dekagrams 245 40 r15 RS4 xidas Question I haven’t found the answer to yet- 15x10 and 245’s on nb should mostly fit with fender roll. At what ride height? I’m thinking Xida race and 5” pinch weld height. That should be good (good = minimal rubbing at full lock. May have to remove plastic liners. Won’t be crushing fender with tire at every crack in the road). Will need to look more into alignment specs. but most of what I’ve seen on “acceptable street ride height” is ground to fender measurements, not pinch weld. So that setup at 5” should be ok? I don’t have many speed bumps but don’t want to have to get out and measure shit to plan my route. car will be 98% street. Have a buddy that’s a retired race car driver, looking to get back into racing, has a manufacturing company, building a spec e46, building an 07k for his 944 turbo, blah blah blah that’s wanting me to get out to some FATT’s so half prepping for that too. also keeping an eye out for a kraken mani and dp and efr 62 or 67. |
I liked 5/5.25 F/R for the street with my Bilsteins but my XIDA race seemed comfortable slightly lower. Otherwise they didn't have enough droop capacity for me to believe they would work correctly. I'm at 4.75/5 or 4.5/4.75 now, I can't recall which, but I know it is lower than before.
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For 5" pinch weld I think you might want to look at the Xida XLs, but I could be mistaken. I think there's a lot of information on Supermiata's site on pinch weld ride heights and what suspension is best for what ride height.
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The races are below 5”, and xl are above 5”.
I’d like to be able to fit 15x10’s on 245 RS4 and am concerned about ride height for the street and fitment. Have an email into Supermiata. |
Go with the XL's. I had trouble getting even to 5" pinch welds with my Race setup. I upgraded to the XL bodies because on the street even at 5" stuff was dicey over big speed bumps and such.
You have seen the entrance to my driveway. With the Race's as high as I could get them, getting in and out was a tedious process. |
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That's what I was thinking. Same valving just longer. And they would still get lower than you want to go if you change your mind later.
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Best of both worlds. Thanks guys.
since I may be getting into a little more racing than anticipated I’m also getting an oil cooler. Haven’t done much research yet but from what I’ve seen, don’t jeopardize the airflow to the intercooler and radiator. Best thing to do for oil temp would be to weld another bung into the oil pan sump? wanted to go with an improved racing sandwich plate since they have a 212° Thermostat option but out of stock and 190$ so going with mocal at 180°. I had a Mishimoto one earlier but was not pleased with the fit and finish. -10. 🤘 |
Originally Posted by Blysccr
(Post 1569421)
Best of both worlds. Thanks guys.
since I may be getting into a little more racing than anticipated I’m also getting an oil cooler. Haven’t done much research yet but from what I’ve seen, don’t jeopardize the airflow to the intercooler and radiator. Best thing to do for oil temp would be to weld another bung into the oil pan sump? wanted to go with an improved racing sandwich plate since they have a 212° Thermostat option but out of stock and 190$ so going with mocal at 180°. I had a Mishimoto one earlier but was not pleased with the fit and finish. -10. 🤘 |
I really wanted vei dual gauges, but they’re having a sourcing issues and are a few months out. So I got some innovate dual gauges. Seem wayyy too complicated for what I want but oh well.
I am using the oil pressure sender adapter for my turbo oil feed. The sandwich plate I have coming doesn’t have a tap for that- which I’m fine with as I don’t want to slow down any flow there. my question- does anyone know what ohm the innovate oil pressure sender operates? I obviously have 0 faith in the factory dumb gauge, but it will bother the shit out of me if it’s dead as I pull the oem sender. Was thinking I could tap into the innovate sender. Did some poking around. Looks like the innovate stuff takes an alternate reading every few microseconds. So just going to unplug the factory gauge. Have a SS adapter on the way. This is going to bug me, maybe I'll put the innovate gauge in the oem gauge panel. we'll see. Also, is there a cleaner less issue prone way to do this? Or am I on the right track? Still looking for cast top mount for efr and downpipe. :bowrofl: Thanks |
shit. Should I do upgraded valve springs? 100% NOT raising the rev limit over stock.
ordered my suspension and sway bars :bang: engine should be done tomorrow. I’d hate to have a badass car with no engine. But at this rate is there a rolling chassis of the month competition? tbh the timing does work out as I should be able to get my Jeep sitting on its own weight tomorrow. Couple little things are taking forever to get here. Ie 1/8” npt bung for oil pan. Not going to weld that in the car. |
Shit these are big
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...de28a4fc7.jpeg |
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The available time : desire to work : back to work tables have changed plus the motor still isn’t done that’s a whole other sub forum https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...790ee09e7.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...162fc598c.jpeg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0ea76aabd.jpeg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...96c32218d5.png https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...320d6ec5a.jpeg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e515bc307.jpeg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6bd8af567.jpeg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0f0e45300.jpeg |
Question- Do you install the head to the block and torque without the cams or with?
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I put my fully dressed head and and bolted it in, so I dont think it metters
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thank you
Originally Posted by borka
(Post 1571804)
I put my fully dressed head and and bolted it in, so I dont think it metters
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Alright guys. Going to be starting my assembly tomorrow. I have oem torque specs handy.
many tips? do I put a load of assembly lube in the oil pump? do I torque anything extra? Thanks! |
Load of assembly lube in the pump.
Put lock tight on the oil squirters. |
:werd:
thanks Shuie! *I assume that it is best to replace the EFR boost control solenoid with the MAC valve? *Does the wastegate actuator on the EFR need to be adjusted/preloaded/etc? I'm waiting on my manifold/downpipe from someone who "stocks everything you need". So hopefully won't wait that long, but idk if it needs clocked or anything yet. *Waiting for trackspeed turbo mount kit *gaskets/seals for things like intake manifold, vvt actuator, etc. How important is that to get new? I'll get crush washers but I do have a full engine gasket kit. Have old style headgasket. *have npt to bsp adapter for oil pressure gauge. Will forego oem cluster gauge for innovate gauge. bandaid solution for now. Anything I'm missing? Anything else of "while you're in there?" What are the chances the downpipe will mate with the exhaust and IC piping? With all the other crap I've added in, I probably won't get too crazy with changing the IC right now. fuhhhh >planning to use napa conventional oil with lucas break in additive. Wire wastegate open, bring car up to idle, and run through the gears and let it idle down to create that vacuum. Per engine builder. (also have to bed brakes and break in clutch). Will do that for 30-75 miles. >75 miles change oil with conventional, let the wastegate do it's thing but take it easy >500 miles change again with dino oil and run it decent >1k miles rotella t6 and let her eat Notes for my sanity -finish fuel pump rewire- under dash relay isn't green. just saying. -extend fuel pump return line in tank -find screw for pump cover -put all that shit i took apart back for interior -get frankenstein bolts for hard top -secure sway bar end links both ends. Check orientation. -half ass align with elbj and outer TRE's -assemble engine -install temp and pressure sensor pig tails -verify coolant reroute is tight. Weld on adapter at radiator? -build new turbo return and feed lines --heat wrap for that^ -put all the shit back on the engine. torque values handy. get liquid threadsealer -check pinchweld height -mount catch can and external FPR --> eliminating strut tower brace to clear up space, hear it's not needed -e85 sensor (downstream of fuel rail) -get a race alignment -make sure vacuum lines are good -plumb fuel system -catch can -head shielding -under tray? -clutch line -heat tape between dp and tranny -lots of other stuff i'll miss |
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