Another oil catch can thread
 

So I'm getting quite a bit of oil from my breather and pcv ports. Both are plumbed to a catch can and then vented to atmosphere. What I plan to do is drill and tap the valve cover on both sides for -10 an fitting and plumb them both to a catch can with -10 an lines.

http://www.performanceparts4less.com...partid=4167223


What say you?
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me says you is a boost addict....congrats, lol

Thats how mine is, except the nipple on the drivers side of the valve cover I just have capped off.

Attachment 198070

Where does the lower line on your catch can go?
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It goes to a nipple on the side of the block right above the oil pan. I'm not sure if its a return or if its for crank case vapors as well...Thats how it was when I bought the car so thats how I left it :giggle:

Ahh yes, normally that nipple just has a cap on it. Not sure what's it's for.
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It's for the crappy greddy oil return, duh.

Dunno why I hadn't thought of that, great way to keep the catch can from over flowing Cspence. No check valves anywhere?

CSpence, is that a diy can? I can't fnd one with 2 fittings for less than an arm and a leg.
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Yea thats a home brew job....

No check valves...I dont think it'd really be necessary there. I mean its kinda dual purpose I guess...drain for the catch can if its full / venting crank case vapors. If there was a check valve one of the two would be stopped...

This one will only run you an arm, so you can keep your leg at least!
I'm running the translucent version, so I can keep an eye on fill level. So far, the only liquid that it's seen is some condensation.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/JZP-605-325-01/

Isn't that kinda small? And the inlets are only 1/4".
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Ive got the version with the 3/8 inlets.

If I can fill this tank up between checks, something is seriously wrong. I've gotten a total 2 tablespoons of condensation out of it since installing.

Attachment 198041
Attachment 198042

this is how i did mine, just two -10 lines to a moroso can. it would be nice if we had some threaded ports from the block to vent aswell. dont know how well its gonna work untill i run the motor. i have no doubt it will be fine as this is how just about every other for of racing vents there stuff

ctdrftna, does that still create a bad smell?

You have some bangin-hot braided lines there. Makes mine look silly in comparison. :bigtu:

That's how MikeF85 had his, and it's how mine will be.

I ended up just ordering this and will just tap the holes for larger fittings.
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I Have a Protege Valve cover should I tap it where the baffles are or can I just drill and tap anywhere? Also is there any advantage of using 10an over 8an?

I would tap the baffles. That way you don't suck up to much oil. I would do -10

From my interactions with 323GTX group and the Europe and Australia members the early B6T cars in those countries came stock with a catch can and the return was to that nipple on the side of the block. Probably because of specific evaporation emission standards most countries didn’t get that system installed I’m guessing. The nipple was still left on the block however along with turbo oil and water feeds that were cap plugged.

My experience having put a return into the pan it was a disaster. Hard cornering or braking would slosh oil up to the return and pressure pulses would pump oil up and out the breather. I think the Mazda speed catch can system actually has the return submerged at the bottom of the pan. Maybe if it stays below the oil level it won’t pump up the return tube.

Mine currently just has the hoses from the valve cover to the catch can with no return. It fills up with condensation especially warming up on cold humid mornings.

I would still like to figure out how to vent the lower crank case to the catch can/breather without it spewing on me during hard cornering or braking.

Bob

This is how I currently have mine, my catch can takes several thousand miles before it fills up with enough condensation that it starts to spill out.

That would be ideal for me also. My problem is too much crank case pressure. Now that I'm at 26 psi oil starts seeping past the dip stick tube o-ring after a few WOT runs, even with a brand new o-ring. It's fine under normal driving and my car still holds ~20in of vacuum so I doubt there's anything major wrong. I drilled out the breather side port of my valve cover last night and put in a 3/8 to 5/8 hose barb there and in the pcv side. I will run both to a much larger catch can that has a 2" breather filter on top with 5/8 hose. I still think I need to vent the crank case some how.
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Cspence, does that not happen on your car? Maybe it wouldn't be a problem on a car that dosen't see the track?
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Well another solution would be to run a vaccum pump

Im running a Greddy Catch, I have a b6t v/c, im going to try using the port in the vc near the tb and drain into the greddy drain location, that big plug by the alternator.

here's how real men do it:

http://www.marcuccimotorsports.com/b..._cover/vc1.jpg
http://www.marcuccimotorsports.com/b...e_cover/a3.jpg

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8562/picture0031.png

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/r...g?t=1247544058

Attachment 197853
Attachment 197854
Attachment 197855

http://photos.imageevent.com/jasonk/...C%20bottom.jpg

http://honda-tech.com/attachment.php...1&d=1248229528

http://www.interaktiv.com.au/media/a...7854_small.jpg

http://honda-tech.com/attachment.php...1&d=1254415176

Brain's examples are the best VTA catch can method, for pretty much all cars. You can port the brether like you did Phil, but the issue is that the actual holes drilled in the adjoining "pockets" in the vc baffles are all pretty small. And there isn't enough meat to make them much bigger.

I already have both the pcv port and breather port drilled out to 5/8" fittings. Which is = to -10an. Those are hooked up to a large catch can with a 2" breather. So that should be large enough for up top. I think I'm also going to run a hose from the nipple on the side of the block below the alt to my smaller catch can and let that vent to atmosphere. This should allow the crank case to breathe.

Thoughts?
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Do that. FTW. If that doesn't fix it, you've got issues.

You didn't connect with what I said I guess. The vented air in the head enters the vc through the baffles at the center of the VC. It then travels through a series of drilled holes to the actual external ports. The drilled holes are only like MAYBE 1/8". No where near -10AN. If you modded the VC like they big boost honda boys with ports directly exposed to the inside of the head and small baffles to prevent excessive oil suction you would eliminate pretty much all of your issues.

I would plug the current holes, have 2 -10AN bungs welded on like in the pics. Run those to a catch can that is VTA. Then on the bottom of the catch can I would have an outlet with a hose that runs to the block vent. This way when you are out of boost the shit in the can would drain back into the sump. There are TONS of OEM turboed cars that do this, works fine and you never have to drain your shit again. Also, its best to have a properly baffled catch can and not fill it with any stuffing or other shit. You don't want any small particles from filler getting into your oil and possibly abrading anything.

I got you, guess I'll be taking my valve cover back off.
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I don't understand the oil catch can thing. I've just got the driver side port on the valve cover VTA with a filter and the 323GTX PCV valve. Never seen a drop of oil. Am I missing something?

Ya, you aren't running 26PSI so you aren't getting anywhere near the amount of blowby he is that is pressurizing his crank case.

Ok, new plan. Neo and I discussed via IM. What I'm going to do is drill a bunch of small holes into the baffle plates on the under side of the valve cover at the opposite ends of the breather ports. That should really allow the head the breathe and not allow excessive oil to escape.

http://www.racecaddy.com/mx5/1-pix-m...over-miata.jpg
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Gotcha, I'm only running 18

What Neo said, I had no issues when I was at 20-22 psi. Now that I'm at 26 the pressure is building.
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Oil will splash up into those holes and excessive amounts will come out your breather if you do that. Heck it does that even if you forget to put sealant on those plates before you put them back on.

Bob

It depends on the weather. 40 degrees and overcast humid where the tailpipe is also blowing steam out till it warms up and mine will fill up within a tank of gas depending on how many cold starts that includes. a bit warmer and less humid and it takes a long time.

Bob

Fuck you're right. I took those plates off once to get a valve cover powder coated and I didn't use sealent when I put them back on. Oil came out of the ports like crazy and that was with my 2554 at 8 psi.
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I think the Return spot Cspense is using is much higher than the oil pan it is actually right beside the Oil filter in the block. As far as I can tell this return location was only available as cast in to very early 1.6l blocks and was later removed. I had it in my original 1990 block but not a 1993 and I have seen it in J-spec imported B6t’s but not on all us-spec 323 GTX’s . US spec GTX’s had a pipe cast into the pan that was just capped off.

I had a return tapped into the oil pan just under the alternator. It worked fine until taking it to a track that had a 120mph downhill with a braking zone into a second gear corner. This situation resulted in Oil all aver my engine compartment.

After discovering how much oil slosh there really is in the pan I am also considering installing an Accusump.

Bob

That's the same port my block has. I'm definitely going to open that up to relieve crank case pressure.
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Front wheel drivin' not rear wheel drivin' like they should. They're lucky those massive -10AN lines don't blow the welds on their catch cans.

just want to remind you what won the $2009 GRM challenge:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/med...tty_pushes.jpg

IIRc it was 2nd in autox and 3nd in 1/4


the best miata placed 4th. only .08sec slower in autox and 2 seconds slower in 1/4 mile. so HA 1.6L running a turbo with MS.

I have the same problem as you levnubhin, i want to see how yours turns out and i will probably do the same. My catch can right now is hooked up to the right side of valve cover and the intake. Every time i hit full boost u dont want to be behind me lol. Heres a pic...Attachment 197847

Some pictures of 323 GTX 1.6l lower vents.

I believe these two ports that are capped off with a rubber cap are for a crank case vent and catch can return. In countries where to meet regulations a PCV system was required these were not used and were simply capped off.

I suspect the upper one would serve as a lower crank case pressure vent and the lower one which goes to the very bottom of the sump would function as a catch can return.

I have 3 GTX blocks right now and 2 of them have the upper vent nipple in the block and one does not. I also have had one 1.6l Miata block that had it and one that didn’t. None of the 1.8ls I have seen have had this vent in the block I suspect the whole thing was scrapped for the better emissions controls a PCV system has.

I think what happens if you only vent the valve cover and vent it well, as in better than what you can get from a PCV system, is the pressure and gas flow from the bottom end generated from blow by has to go back up to the top of the head through the oil drain back passages if it gets too much it will impede the oil trying to drain back from the head to the pan and basically cause much of your oil to get stuck in the top of the head where it can slosh up into the upper vents or even possibly cause an oil starvation issue. A PCV with the tiny vent isn’t vented that well so I think you end up with just higher pressure everywhere in the engine.

Bob

Attachment 197836
Attachment 197837
Attachment 197838
Attachment 197839

So far so good. Nothing leaking in the engine compartment and no big puffs of black smoke when I went wot a few times this morning. Eventually I'll move the hose coming from the crank port to the big catch can that's mounted in the front.
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Has me wondering about drilling and tapping a hole in the side of my 1.8 block to attach a lower vent to. I think putting a drain back in by taping into the pan well below the oil level would fix the spewing problem but it dosnt seem like it would function as a blowby vent that way.

Bob

Anyone thought about running a pump?

Like the air pump on a 'vette? I've considered it. Hooking up a catch can and then running the top tube to the inlet of the air pump. If you had it switch on in boost via a hobbs switch it could theoretically create negative pressure in the crank case which would create a better ring seal (assuming it drew enough air).

Hmm thats a good idea...now i need to get 2 new catch cans...lol. So are you running a pcv or no? I cant tell in the pic

No, the intake manifold port is capped off.
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I think the reason those hondas get away with giant ports/hoses with minimal cam cover shielding on the ports is because they have a good OE return for the vent system. I'm up to two 1/2" OE ports on the FE, chopped one my baffle covers in half and got mass quantities of oil in the can. When I replaced it with an full untouched OE baffle plate it dramatically reduced the oil in the can, but still prevented the leaking cam cover gasket. I think the PCV port is a good port to use for venting, since it's shielded well and big. I'm also using two right angles immediately off the cam cover which helps keep oil in the engine.
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...covervent1.jpg

Like I said I think what happens when you vent the valve cover real well is the blowby gases from the bottom of the motor shoot up the oil drain back holes between the head and the lower portion of the block so fast that it prevents the oil from draining back to the pan from the top of the head good enough. Too much oil collects in the top of the head and with some sloshing action it finds its way out the vents.

I think what we need is a good way for blowby gasses to get from the bottom of the motor to the top without having to fight its way up the oil drain back passages. The existing passages between the top of the valve cover and the lower pan area are not big enough to handle oil flowing in one direction and blowby combustion gases flowing opposite directions at the same time especially in a motor making over 3 times the hp id did in its stock configuration.

Another thing I have been thinking of doing is just connecting like a -10 line from above the oil level on pan to one of the vents on the valve cover and only venting one side of the valve cover to a catch can and atmosphere.

Bob

I'll buy that given the same pressure is blowing oil past the internal cam cover baffles and through the vent hoses to a catch can.

It would almost make more sense to run that line to the upper part (or isolated vent side) of the catch can, so there's no way oil will be forced down the tube/hose/line from the head. That keeps it open for vent directly from the crankcase while the can has a separate line for draining back the oil vented from the head.

Problem is I tried that. The result was that during a hard braking and turning maneuver a slug of oil gets sloshed into the tube going to the pan and then it gets shot out like a spit ball with enough force it shoots through the breather filter and coats the engine compartment.

It's freaking hard to find a spot to vent where you just vent gas and not get oil with it. It is easier to do up top and even that is hard as evidenced by how important the labyrinth of baffles they put in from the factory valve cover.

Looking at the head It looks as though one of the passages between the top of the head and the bottom of the block is designed for gas flow as it is raised up off the floor to prevent oil from running down into it. Both the heads have one of these ports, in addition The 1.6l has 3 oil drain backs and the 1.8l has 4.

I also am thinking about running less oil in the pan but adding an accusump.

Bob

I'm having an issue with oil coming out the dipstick tube and I'm only at 7 psi on a 2554. It's possible I have bad rings but I'm trying everything I can before pulling the motor. Can anyone tell me what size the fitting is for the crank case vent? I'd like to route that into my catch can setup and see if it'll solve my problem.

Has anyone actually measured blowby flow and pressure? Examined the blowby routing in the cam cover baffles? I have.

With my old tired 2000 motor the pressure was too high - 20" water at mid RPMs.

I opened the valve cover's baffles and added plastic kitchen scrubbers. I discovered that all the blowby passed through a tiny hole (3/16" IIRC) connecting one chamber to another. I enlarged this hole to a pair of 1/4" holes. This mod reduced the crankcase pressure to about 10".

Before this mod I'd also discovered that the fittings and hoses to my home-made catch can was worth about 7" of pressure loss. Larger fittings helped a lot. The scrubbers reduced the rate at which my catch can filled up.

The problem I was trying to solve was turbo seals weeping when the car was driven hard. The above mods reduced it a lot.

Just for comparison, a stationary turbo diesel setup crankcase pressure spec is <5" water. IIRC aftermarket turbo manufacturers recommend <10".

On my new 2001 motor I measured blowby FLOW and it was a bit over half of what a healthy motor shows. However at redline and full power the crankcase pressure is around 10-15" water. This motor has a stock valve cover. So the pressure is marginally high despite the tight ring seal.

What this all tells me is that the tiny hole that separates 2 chambers in the baffling of the valve cover is too small for when you turbo the motor. Blowby is proportional to power production (and ring condition of course). If you double or triple the horsepower, it stands to reason the that said hole may need to be enlarged. If I now get weeping out of my turbo seals with my new motor at the track, I'm gonna do the same mod I did before.

The reason turbos may weep with high crankcase pressure, is that this same crankcase pressure can cause the oil drain line to back up. If anyone wonders why some turbos don't weep with high crankcase pressure, perhaps it's due to variance in how the drain is routed. In my car, the drain hose has a very slight uphill portion where it passes under the a/c compressor.

I know the MSM has addressed CC venting, but I'm not familiar with it. Anybody?

No, I didn't measure it with gauges, math and science. I did enlarge the stock breather port along with a second and got the desired results though. I would have never guessed just how small the passage was. That's it - the white circle. 1/2" gas pipe on the left.
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...portoldnew.jpg

A quick look at NA vs. Turbo versions of production cars using the same engine reveals that the added power is requires addressing the blow by (CC pressure). Somewhere in my catchcan thread is a pic of this.

Update: It's been almost 2 weeks and everything is working perfectly. I think the biggest help is having that crank case vent.
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so, to summarize: you vented the blocked off port on the passenger rear of the block to a small'ish catch can, ported the two standard VC vents out to larger (-10AN equiv) openings, and ran both of those to a second, larger catch can. no internal mods (aside from porting out the vents) to the valve cover baffling or valve cover itself, correct?

I'm looking to get my car up and running again and i know i was struggling with some crankcase venting issues at 17psi when i put it away, so i want to get it right the first time, this time.

Correct.
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