Borg Warner EFR users.... BE oil pumps/pressure, and AN-6 oil feed? - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 09-17-2013, 02:49 PM   #1
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Default Borg Warner EFR users.... BE oil pumps/pressure, and AN-6 oil feed?

Hey all, I have a question for those who are using EFR turbos especially in colder climates. I am searching and it's hard to dig through everyone configurations but it's hard to extract the small details about this. I'm building a BP4W to swap into my 92 NA.

For reference, here is the full-race technical document regarding these turbos.
http://www.full-race.com/articles/efrturbotechbrief.pdf

I will try to frame the questions as organized as I can

1) OIL FEED

Page 38
Quote:
A
-4AN male fitting has been provided on the EFR turbo and a -4AN (1/4”)
line is sufficient as long as the engine supply pressure is healthy and the
line(s) are kept short. If the line is longer than about 18” then it’s
advised to step up to a -6 supply line. This is most critical for people
living in cold climates.
Page 74
Quote:
The oil supply line should be kept as short as possible.
If a line of unusual length is required, we recommend a -6AN line
especially for very cold climates.
-3AN line is not recommended due to
excessive oil supply delay times during cold start. We recommend that
oil reaches the turbo in less that 4 seconds during a cold start cranking,
and in under 1 second during hot-start conditions.
I live in New England, this is my daily driver. The line is definitely longer than 18inches. I can get the appropriate adapter AN-6/M12x1.5 to support an AN6 oil feed line (self restricted in the turbo). Where would one even source oil for this size of a line? To tee off the pressure sender, one could definitely use a 1/8NPTF to AN-6 male, but then it's already restricted at the source. Do aftermarket oil sandwich plates accommodate AN-6? (I also have the oem oil cooler plate, but no cooler is being used with the car). Is anyone in a cold environment using an AN-4 with success, or what is your AN-6 setup.

2) OIL PRESSURE

Page 74
Quote:
Inlet oil pressure
(gage) is recommended to be at least 1bar (15psi) and not more than
4bar (60psi) under all “fully warmed-up” conditions.
Is anyone using a Boundary Engineering pump with their setup? If so, did you opt for a shimmed option? I ordered a Boundary Engineering street/strip pump and [email protected] recommended to get 2 shims with the pump (+14psi). But now I am uncertain if I should remove one or both shims.


A lot of these may be self explanatory, but I appreciate any help if you have any insights to share. I'm more worried about the oil pressure because that would be much harder to modify after the motor is installed.

Edit:
I just realized maybe I should have posted this under DIY turbo instead of Engine Performance. Sorry mods.
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Old 09-17-2013, 02:57 PM   #2
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I'm using the BE oil pump with my setup. I have one shim in the pump. My oil supply line is -4AN and the line is longer than 18". I've had this setup for a couple of years and so far, no problems. I'm in NM, so my climate is warm.
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Old 09-17-2013, 03:04 PM   #3
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Thanks for the response. Most of my setup is actually mirroring yours! But I am a bit more worried about the climate endured in New England. I'll definitely consider removing one of the shims from the pump, but I'm still a bit uncertain about the feed source.

Something tells me it won't hurt to have a larger hydraulic diameter even though the source is a bit smaller. It's not like pumping cold oil through a coffee stirrer.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:14 PM   #4
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There is a flow restrictor built into the turbo. Another option to explore may be oil viscosities. Going thinner may help cold temp flow.

Edit: Clarification: thinner cold temp viscosity.

Last edited by 99mx5; 09-18-2013 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:08 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99mx5 View Post
There is a flow restrictor built into the turbo. Another option to explore may be oil viscosities. Going thinner may help cold temp flow.

Edit: Clarification: thinner cold temp viscosity.
This is also very true, just trying to find a happy medium to what BW/Full Race says is good for this turbo (slightly heavier oil in general). But given the operating conditions.... anything might help. It's an investment so I don't want to screw it up.

clearly, i should just move to a warmer climate lol
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:32 AM   #6
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:26 AM   #7
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I have a BE street/strip pump, unknown shimming but my hot oil pressure at idle shows lower than the 25psi mark on the stock gauge with rotella T5. I have the oil line sourced from the vvt line, its about 20" long but runs entirely downhill, -4AN. Car does not get run in the winter, early october is probably the latest date it will start. The EFR does spin at idle, but IMO with the ceramic BBs and such low forces and speed on the bearings I wouldnt worry about them not being bathed in oil while sitting at idle waiting for it to warm up. I would give it a few seconds to get oil after startup. If I was really worried about it I would crank the engine with the throttle floored (flood clear mode, it shouldnt start) until oil pressure builds on the gauge and then start it.

Last edited by Leafy; 09-18-2013 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:30 AM   #8
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Thanks Leafy,
Since you're but 40 minutes away, I may need to buy you drinks and pick your brain sometime.
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:56 PM   #9
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I use the side-of-the-block oil feed so my line is pretty short. It's an -4an line, rotella and an older BE oil pump.

I ran the car all last winter.
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Old 09-18-2013, 02:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soviet View Post
I use the side-of-the-block oil feed so my line is pretty short. It's an -4an line, rotella and an older BE oil pump.

I ran the car all last winter.
Driver side or oil pressure sender side? What year is your motor? I'd have to drill/tap the oil galley for the BP4W
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:02 PM   #11
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I have a 94 block, so yeah, the driver side. It's a short line.
I would trust whatever the EFR manual says.

So, if your only option is the passenger side I would do this -

1/8bsp to -6an adapter - http://97.74.32.155/files/un816.pdf part #BM206A, ask for black
-6AN line
and a fitting like this - JEGS Performance Products 100520 JEGS Fuel Pressure Gauge In-Line Adapter Fittings to mount the oil pressure gauge in-line. Mount it somewhere firm (firewall will work, but mounting things on the firewall is a fire hazard)
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Old 09-18-2013, 09:13 PM   #12
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- A long -6 line will have the same resistance to flow as a short -4 line. Resistance to flow is additive, so even though you already have some restriction in the line, it's still beneficial to up-size the line after it! So definitely go with the larger one.

- Leafy wrote that his feed-line goes downhill. Imho that's not a good idea, because it will empty out under gravity while it's sitting with the engine shut off. It will still be hot from running before. So you add another few milliseconds without supply on startup.
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Old 09-18-2013, 09:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanst View Post
- A long -6 line will have the same resistance to flow as a short -4 line. Resistance to flow is additive, so even though you already have some restriction in the line, it's still beneficial to up-size the line after it! So definitely go with the larger one.

- Leafy wrote that his feed-line goes downhill. Imho that's not a good idea, because it will empty out under gravity while it's sitting with the engine shut off. It will still be hot from running before. So you add another few milliseconds without supply on startup.
Ah, but if it runs uphill it will still drain backwards, and arguably faster than it would drain though the tiny restrictor on the efr. Also about 1/3 of its length is more or less horizontal. Now that I think of it.
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Old 09-19-2013, 12:40 AM   #14
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http://www.racingbeat.com/RX8/Oil-System/11803.html

I found this oil adapter which should work with the bp4w amd it has a 3/8"npt. Should be perfect diameter for turbo feed.

A bit pricey but I'd do it to keep the turbo happy
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:01 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Ah, but if it runs uphill it will still drain backwards...
touche
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Ah, but if it runs uphill it will still drain backwards, and arguably faster than it would drain though the tiny restrictor on the efr. Also about 1/3 of its length is more or less horizontal. Now that I think of it.
Not the case.

The pump is downstream of the system if it were routed uphill. It doesnt drain back all of the oil to the pan that is in the pressure side.



Either way, its splitting hairs. the oil pressure will be high as soon as the engine has enough rpm to run. the turbo will have that pressure by the time the engine has run long enough to spin it up to idle speed.
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Old 03-18-2017, 06:49 PM   #17
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so what did you end up doing? Same setup here (VVT engine in NA, cool German temps, BE pump, albeit with 1 shim). Will -4 AN be enough or should I gor for -6 AN?
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:08 AM   #18
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-6.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
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-6.

Yup still running - 6 in accordance to the tech document. Though I doubt - 4 would be an issue if using the driver side block port
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:56 PM   #20
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thanks, -6AN it is then (NBFL engine, so no port on the driver's side)
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