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Old 01-14-2016, 04:51 AM   #1
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Default BP Head Lifting

Does anyone have any experience with head lifting a BP? and how to fix it?

I had my car on the dyno today getting retuned on e85 and it started to lift the head at around 25ish PSI

Its been running with pump gas, 30psi and 300kws at all 4 wheels (engines in a 88 mazda 323 4wd) for years with no issues but running e85 has up'd the cylinder pressures and its started to lift.

Has arp studs but still not enough to hold it together.
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Old 01-14-2016, 07:08 AM   #2
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I've not heard of any head lifting, you sure you didn't just pop the head gasket?
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:58 AM   #3
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I've never heard of that either, but not a lot of people here run 30 lbs of boost. Who torqued the nuts on the head studs?
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Old 01-14-2016, 11:14 AM   #4
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Also, I'm far from an expert, but I've never heard that different octane fuels cause higher cylinder pressures.... The resulting tuning can cause spikes, but not the fuel itself, unless detonation is occurring.

5 psi less, and head lifting? Me thinks years of 30psi weakened head gasket, and new found timing finished the job
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Old 01-14-2016, 12:43 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AL4SPN View Post
Does anyone have any experience with head lifting a BP? and how to fix it?

I had my car on the dyno today getting retuned on e85 and it started to lift the head at around 25ish PSI

Its been running with pump gas, 30psi and 300kws at all 4 wheels (engines in a 88 mazda 323 4wd) for years with no issues but running e85 has up'd the cylinder pressures and its started to lift.

Has arp studs but still not enough to hold it together.
I lifted a head once at 23 PSI. In my case, I kept looking for an answer and eventually found that my torque wrench was miscalibrated. I had torqued the head bolts to ~42 ft*lbs instead of 65.

I bought a beam type torque wrench and checked the calibration on it before reinstalling the new head. ARP bolts, mazda washers under the nuts, ARP lube, and 65 ft*lbs. Running 30 PSI on E85 without an issue for 8 months so far.
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Old 01-14-2016, 02:23 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by glade View Post
I've not heard of any head lifting, you sure you didn't just pop the head gasket?
Very sure its just the head lifting, only pushing water into the over flow at high boost

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Originally Posted by AlwaysBroken View Post
I've never heard of that either, but not a lot of people here run 30 lbs of boost. Who torqued the nuts on the head studs?
Engine builder did, they were at 65ft*lb, yeah i couldn't find anyone else running this kind of boost either

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Originally Posted by glade View Post
Also, I'm far from an expert, but I've never heard that different octane fuels cause higher cylinder pressures.... The resulting tuning can cause spikes, but not the fuel itself, unless detonation is occurring.

5 psi less, and head lifting? Me thinks years of 30psi weakened head gasket, and new found timing finished the job
You get more cylinder pressure on E85 because you need to use 30-35% more fuel to get the same power, we have the same issue on a friends laser as well and have just done a head gasket and a few mods to the head to try and keep it seated, but are yet to know if it has worked


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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
I lifted a head once at 23 PSI. In my case, I kept looking for an answer and eventually found that my torque wrench was miscalibrated. I had torqued the head bolts to ~42 ft*lbs instead of 65.

I bought a beam type torque wrench and checked the calibration on it before reinstalling the new head. ARP bolts, mazda washers under the nuts, ARP lube, and 65 ft*lbs. Running 30 PSI on E85 without an issue for 8 months so far.
Was done to 65ft*lb
We re-torqued the head on the dyno to 80 ft*lb so will find out today if that has helped at all, it might be to late, have read that some people have wreaked heads going this tight but cant confirm it, was worth a try anyway
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Old 01-14-2016, 02:46 PM   #7
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You get more cylinder pressure on E85 because you need to use 30-35% more fuel to get the same power
Huh?
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Old 01-14-2016, 02:55 PM   #8
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Ehh, I'm not buying it. There are a decent number of 350-400 whp cars running around without head issues.

What's your setup? What turbo is running 30, 25psi? What supporting mods? What engine? Bp05, 4w, 6pd?

What head gasket?

Engine builders reputation?

I've seen one or more of the above cause legit problems.
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Old 01-14-2016, 03:02 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by glade View Post
Ehh, I'm not buying it. There are a decent number of 350-400 whp cars running around without head issues.

What's your setup? What turbo is running 30, 25psi? What supporting mods? What engine? Bp05, 4w, 6pd?

What head gasket?

Engine builders reputation?

I've seen one or more of the above cause legit problems.
My car was making 400whp for years on pump gas without issues, its only the switch to E85 that has caused the head to lift,

My Build ThreadGIFTID v2.0 GTae - AMAZD

BP05 GTX Ported head, exh cam intake swap, supertech double valve springs, Ti retainers
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OE Head Gasket -copper coated
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Engine build is very well known here and does many many race engines
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Old 01-14-2016, 03:05 PM   #10
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Huh?
ok i might have that wrong, its the more timing you can run that creates the higher cylinder pressure, it was also most Likely making more power on 25psi than it was at 30psi before
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Old 01-14-2016, 03:08 PM   #11
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I hope you were on a dyno while tuning!!!! Get a snap of the dyno sheet!

(Cause this project has officially given me a hard on...)

To be fair, other than a couple 500 horsepower dyno queen miata, and that mythical 800hp drag miata, I don't know of many running similar setups.

The escort guys have run some big numbers, but they are 2wd as well.
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Old 01-14-2016, 03:25 PM   #12
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You aren't lifting the head, but you probably blew the HG and need to disassemble, re-skim the head, and reassemble with a fresh gasket. There are at least a few users here who are running 25+psi with ARP studs and nobody has head gasket issues.

Higher cylinder pressure due to E85 is 100% BS. Cylinder pressure and torque are related, though.
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Old 01-14-2016, 03:41 PM   #13
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265 kpa here with ARP studs -- no HG issues.

Why copper-coat the stock head gasket?

--Ian
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Old 01-14-2016, 03:55 PM   #14
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You aren't lifting the head, but you probably blew the HG and need to disassemble, re-skim the head, and reassemble with a fresh gasket. There are at least a few users here who are running 25+psi with ARP studs and nobody has head gasket issues.

Higher cylinder pressure due to E85 is 100% BS. Cylinder pressure and torque are related, though.
Head gasket is not blown, only pushes water on high boost so head is differently lifting
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:00 PM   #15
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Many before you have done exactly what you are doing today and few/none of them have lifted the head. The BP does not have a head lifting problem. Consider these facts carefully before you start trying to solve your problem.
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:04 PM   #16
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Many before you have done exactly what you are doing today and few/none of them have lifted the head. Consider this fact carefully before you start trying to solve your problem.

LOL, I have, but the head has lifted, also this is not the first BP i know of that has lifted the head,
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:12 PM   #17
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LOL, I have, but the head has lifted, also this is not the first BP i know of that has lifted the head,
Link to other lifted head?

I think you might have a cracked water jacket, or crack in the head. Too many people have made stupid power without lifting the head. He'll, faefae didn't lifting his head,and that's saying something
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:13 PM   #18
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Link to other lifted head?

I think you might have a cracked water jacket, or crack in the head. Too many people have made stupid power without lifting the head. He'll, faefae didn't lifting his head,and that's saying something
fae never made more than 369hp.
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:16 PM   #19
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True, but he also ran stupid high boost numbers, and self tuned, didn't he?

All's I'm saying, is if fae didn't **** his up, how did this guy?

Although, not too many people make that number on a bp05, maybe that head is the key here
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:16 PM   #20
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Link to other lifted head?

I think you might have a cracked water jacket, or crack in the head. Too many people have made stupid power without lifting the head. He'll, faefae didn't lifting his head,and that's saying something
No link, but it is a good friend, it now hopefully fixed, but i wanted to know what other people had done

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fae never made more than 369hp.
I have made over 400 for years and it was fine, only happened when getting closer to the 500hp level
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