|
BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)
4 Attachment(s)
Okay, so I've had this 1981 Toyota Starlet for about a year now. Rwd short wheel base and light (1800lbs) so perfect platform to build on.
Anyway, got the car running and then painted it. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1450931648 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1450931648 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1450931648 Anyway, I wanted to start working on making it faster, bunch of different ideas I had, 350 V8, 4.3 V6, flat 4, I found a wrecked 01 Miata at the junkyard. Best part it was Memorial day weekend, so that meant half price. Here is a list of what I got for $256 Engine Complete with all sensors, alternator, WP, exhaust, intake, etc 5spd transmission Clutch pedal with cylinder Driveshaft Almost the entire cars wiring harness. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1450931648 Anyway, I got the engine home a few months ago, got all the wiring hooked up and tried to fire it, no dice. I came to the conclusion it was the Immobilizer, mostly because the key I got from the car was aftermarket and wouldn't read. So after $150 for another ECU, Immobilizer, and key I started working again. ( crazy these three parts cost 2/3 what I paid for the whole shebang) Still no spark... As of right now it's sitting in my garage with the wiring laid out on the floor and I am trying to get the engine fired off of ether; after that I will hook up a fuel pump and try to get it to fire off of it's own fuel. Here is what I have done/tested Checked all grounds and grounded everything that normally bolts to the car. Verified the wiring between the coils, cam sensor, crank senor wiring to the ECU - all GOOD Resistance of the coils is the same - unlikely they both failed No fault codes IAT showing good ECT showing good Engine cranks quickly and voltage drops to about 10v when cranking Tach does NOT move when cranking MAF is hooked up and shows 1.0g/s when cranking Crank sensor is gapped properly and cleaned Okay, onto the complicated part. My scanner shows 228rpm when cranking. If I UNPLUG the CAM sensor, the scanner shows 0 when cranking. Now, I figured that the CRANK sensor would give crank signal to the scanner too? From what I have read the CAM sensor is for fuel and the CRANK sensor is for ignition, is this true? Also, is it true that the TACH moves when cranking? My brother's 02 Protege5 does NOT move when cranking. None of my vehicles do. If someone could do me huge favor it would really help with my diagnostic; if someone would plug in their scanner and unplug the CAM sensor (the one on the valve cover) and see if their scanner shows rpm when cranking. Hopefully you fellas can help me diagnose and stay tuned for more updates on the swap. |
I definitely get a moving tach while cranking.
|
how did you gap the crank sensor?
|
What year model is the wiring? What about the ECU?
There was in change in the way the main relay is activated. It went from being key controlled to ECU controlled sometime around 2004. Took me 3 sets of ECU/immobilizers/keys before I sat down with the wiring diagrams and figured that out. Try pulling the main relay and jumper the appropriate terminals. You will have to figure out which ones since I am lazy. If that fixes it, you may have to do a little creative wiring or buy another ECU set. |
Originally Posted by ryansmoneypit
(Post 1294554)
I definitely get a moving tach while cranking.
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1294570)
how did you gap the crank sensor?
Originally Posted by Satisaii
(Post 1294590)
What year model is the wiring? What about the ECU?
There was in change in the way the main relay is activated. It went from being key controlled to ECU controlled sometime around 2004. Took me 3 sets of ECU/immobilizers/keys before I sat down with the wiring diagrams and figured that out. Try pulling the main relay and jumper the appropriate terminals. You will have to figure out which ones since I am lazy. If that fixes it, you may have to do a little creative wiring or buy another ECU set. Thanks for the help guys! |
I probed the wires for the crank sensor and when cranking I get pulses of 500mv, so seems like the crank sensor is not the problem. Right now I can't think of anything else that would give no spark.
The weird part is I don't get cranking signal with the cam sensor unplugged. |
If your get 200+ rpms through the OBD-II, then the ECU is reading the crank and cam sensors correctly.
Replace one of the injectors with a noid light, check if it blinks during cranking. If it doesn't, check if one of the two wires has spark. If it does but the noid light doesn't blink, you probably have an immobilizer issue. Hookup a bulb to the immobilizer's light output, and check if it goes on for 1 second when you switch the ignition on. I assume the coil antenna is connected to the module, and you have the key inside the antenna. And of course the module is connected to the ECU. |
When I switch the key ON, the immobilizer light in the cluster comes on and stays on.
With my first ECU set it would come on for a second and blink three times and repeat, for DTC 03. Indicating it wasn't reading the key, so I bought a working ECU set. I have yet to have ANY spark at all out of this engine. Okay, after some more troubleshooting. First thing I found out was that the scanner does NOT show cranking when the CKP is unplugged. So that means the CKP is doing something. After that I went through checking grounds, and found that the signal wire for the coils are GROUNDED, all the time. So I unplugged the ECU and the ground goes away, so that means the ECU is sending a ground signal all the time? The actual ground for the coils is still good. Third thing, I am not getting any injector pulse, but I am getting voltage.. I started looking at the difference between the 01 and 03 wiring harness and there are a few differences. First big one is that there is a wire that comes of the main relay and goes straight into the ECU on the 03, the 01 wiring does NOT have that wire in that spot. Instead that same color wire comes from a rollover valve and goes into a different spot on the ECU. If you feel like being a nice person and helping out but don't understand what I am saying; here is the two diagrams I am studying. http://www.mellens.net/mazda/mazda_m...001_wiring.pdf http://www.mellens.net/mazda/mazda_m...003_wiring.pdf It's pin 3E and 3H that are the messy ones. Let me know what you guys think. |
Is the wiring harness from a '01 and the new ECU/immo/key from a '03?
|
Yes.
|
I'm really starting to think it might be the immobilizer again..
This engine SHOULD run, I don't know what the problem is. The fact I have no spark or injector pulse is something. I'm not getting the security light flashing every 30 seconds or so when the key is off. But when the key is ON the light comes on and stays on? Don't know how the light works other than DTCs. Man what I would do to have a running 01 Miata in my driveway for diagnostics. I checked all the wiring for the Imm. circuit and all is good. If I remove the antenna coil so it doesn't have the key next to it, it gives the DTC 03 so I know it's doing something. |
The problem may be with the ECU. The 03-05 have a main relay that is not switched on by the ignition switch, but from the ECU. The ECU activates the relay and expects to see power on pin 4S. It is possible that if the ECU doesn't see 12V on pin 4S, it never fully switches on.
|
Originally Posted by Reverant
(Post 1296455)
The problem may be with the ECU. The 03-05 have a main relay that is not switched on by the ignition switch, but from the ECU. The ECU activates the relay and expects to see power on pin 4S. It is possible that if the ECU doesn't see 12V on pin 4S, it never fully switches on.
|
Cheers. :)
|
2 Attachment(s)
Alright, I've about got the harness cut up, about 1/3 of it has been removed. All unnecessary wiring, lights, HVAC, airbags, etc
I nabbed a video of the engine running, well firing on all 4 cylinders, the light flashing is the injector. http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...psotqisjkp.mp4 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452039415 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452039415 http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...psqiqrwgsc.jpg The alternator failed on the Starlet, since I'm getting ready for the swap I'm not gonna replace it; hopefully I'll be pulling the engine back out. Then I can get some motor mounts and trans mount made and move on. |
4 Attachment(s)
Progress!
I got the engine taken out and stripped the engine bay, I've had a slow brake fluid leak for awhile now and it's on the master cylinder, it stripped the paint. Thankfully it's just surface rust. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452219574 I looked at a new MC and found one for $4!!, yes 4$! I am going to paint the engine bay while everything is stripped, I figured white with black brake lines, etc. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452219574 I also stripped the entire dash out, I have to cut the top of the transmission tunnel for the engine to fit, considering the engine is a rear sump pan, and the Starlet is a rear steer. Maybe it'll far enough back I can fit a normal radiator in. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452219574 Does anyone have experience making custom motor mounts here? By the time the engine has been moved back I won't be able to use the crossmember mounts, is it alright to weld a mount on the frame rail? Other than that it's some small things like needing new brake lines and gas pedal. Trans mount should be easy, the Miata trans has a perfect spot for a mount. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452219574 |
4 Attachment(s)
Sorry, did not mean to double post.
|
16 Attachment(s)
I grabbed some pictures of where it is right now while it was still daylight. I speculate the boxing will be around where the heater core pipes normally go.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 Unfortanetly the windshield has been leaking, (I hadn't realized as bad as it was until I got a floor mat and it starting PUDDLING in it) and it rusted a hole in the passenger side floor. Hopefully it's not any worse than it looks under that sound deadening. I'll have to cut and weld that. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 Engine bay and framerails. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 Okay, so this is when the motor mounts, line up. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 Yea....too far forward https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 Right now I am only trying to cut what I absolutely have to. So if it's not straight, or it's notched, it's for a reason. I will make sure everything is straight when I weld it back. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 There still needs to be some cut out before it's at the right angle. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452562351 That's the progress I made. There was an evap line that was in those three in the trans tunnel. I will have to reroute the brake line and fuel return line that's there. I just ordered some parts. Wagner semi metallic brake pads 4 new caliper slider pins 2 new front brake hoses Wagner front right caliper (bleeder on mine is froze) Assorted exhaust tubing Drilled, slotted and ventilated rotors Hopefully all that stuff should be here before the end of the week. I decided to wait on the brake and fuel lines because I might be able to bend mine and reroute them. If not Autozone has the flare tool and lines and fittings I need. |
Man 300 bucks for all that from the junk yard? DAMN. Sell that shit for at least a 1k profit and swap in an engine that sucks less, like a 4age, d16, or something from a john deere.
|
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1298401)
Man 300 bucks for all that from the junk yard? DAMN. Sell that shit for at least a 1k profit and swap in an engine that sucks less, like a 4age, d16, or something from a john deere.
|
Not all that easily. Anything north of 250hp and you need to open it up to build it. Not to mention that its got a terrible heat problem, vibrates like a fucking bastard, and like to break anything you bolt to it. And the stock EFI system works about as well as a bull trying to do ballet. Really its one of the worst engines you could choose to swap into something. The only reason we dick around with it in miatas is that its the only thing that fits easy and its good enough, but it really is just a heavy hateful lump of iron.
|
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1298406)
Not all that easily. Anything north of 250hp and you need to open it up to build it. Not to mention that its got a terrible heat problem, vibrates like a fucking bastard, and like to break anything you bolt to it. And the stock EFI system works about as well as a bull trying to do ballet. Really its one of the worst engines you could choose to swap into something. The only reason we dick around with it in miatas is that its the only thing that fits easy and its good enough, but it really is just a heavy hateful lump of iron.
Haha, the stock Starlet engine was a useless bulletproof lump of iron, performance parts are noneexistant for that engine. But really if this engine does give me a lot of problems I can still take it out and sell it for a nice profit (as long as I don't blow it up) |
No, there's "hey its a racecar vibrations" and there's, "I need to stop every 10 miles down the road and re-tighten every bolt because this motor belongs in a tractor". With anything resembling solid mounts. And of course you have to make your turbo manifold out of sch9000 unobtanium to make it not crack.
|
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1298409)
No, there's "hey its a racecar vibrations" and there's, "I need to stop every 10 miles down the road and re-tighten every bolt because this motor belongs in a tractor". With anything resembling solid mounts. And of course you have to make your turbo manifold out of sch9000 unobtanium to make it not crack.
|
4 Attachment(s)
Okay, got some good progress today. Got one motor mount ready to weld, header in (kinda) and I have the trans mount figured out.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452914234 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452914234 So I grabbed the Miata drive shaft and lo and behold it's almost perfect length. Crazy! https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452914234 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452914234 http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...pswf8amjs3.jpg Anyway, that's all for today. |
BP is a good engine in the sense that:
-it is already inside the miata when you buy one. This is basically the main reason that the BP is modded by everyone here. -it safely can make more than double stock whp just by swapping parts off the outside of the engine, which is convenient if your engine bay already has one and you're lazy -the crank is nearly indestructible (the mains, rods, oil pump gears, etc, ie, everything attached to it, not so much) -there is a pretty huge aftermarket and no matter how weird a modding path you choose, there are probably a dozen posts somewhere on the internet from people who already did it before you But it's a bad motor from the standpoint of: -the head doesn't flow worth shit -the engine is undersquare and has a shitty rod ratio -the bottom end is a solid block of fucking iron and it weighs more than a modern V6 despite making a fraction of the power (see head flow, above) -the engine vibrates and breaks everything you bolt on to it -including oil pumps If you're doing a swap, you might as well do something that doesn't suck- ie, pick one of the engines that miata guys swap in to replace the BP. |
I think those pros weigh out the cons in my situation.
I got the engine for an incredible price and selling it and buying another would put me in the hole. The other engines I was thinking about is the 4age and the beams altezza 3sge. I decided against the 4age because it's carbed, aftermarket parts are expensive. Maintenance parts are tricky to find. And it takes a lot to make significant power with it. I decided against the 3s mostly because parts would be incredibly hard to find for it, it being a jdm engine and all. The Miata engine works for me because cheap parts, easy to find parts, it already has efi, vvti, supercharged and turbo is very common on these engines so lots of documentation, so I think I'll just deal with the rattling and poor flowing head. |
I think he's a little beyond picking a different engine at this point. The aftermarket is one of the best I've seen.
I think it's at pretty awesome swap, but I'm into oddities. |
I put all the wiring on and hooked up the older 96 miata fuel pump I got and tried to fire the engine in the car. It sputtered and tried but not enough pressure. Older Miata was only rated for like 38psi(?) and I need 58psi.
Anyone know of any cars that had an inline fuel pump that makes 50+psi? I know the 88 f150 does, but I wonder if there are any others. Also, does anyone have any experience with the E2000 Airtex inline pump? |
just change your fuel pressure regulator
|
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1301466)
just change your fuel pressure regulator
|
Oh, lol then your pressure is too high.
|
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1301476)
Oh, lol then your pressure is too high.
|
Yeah flooding. You have an NB motor, the fuel regulator for those is in the gas tank. Its just pulse dampers on the fuel rail.
|
1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1301480)
Yeah flooding. You have an NB motor, the fuel regulator for those is in the gas tank. Its just pulse dampers on the fuel rail.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1453432166 EDIT*, yea I have the damper, shame because they crushed the miata I got this engine from. I'll have to get an adjustable regulator. So you say the 96 fuel pump can make enough pressure, it just get regulated down for the 1.6 engine? |
I don't know why you're saying that the 4A-GE isn't fuel injected. My '86 MR2 has an injected version of the engine, and some version of the engine was made through the '90s, with up to 160 hp. True, they're a little bit fragile when you try to get more power out of them, but they're relatively cheap and should bolt up to an AE-86 transmission. You can even put a 4A head on a 7A bottom end to get a 1.8L engine with a good-flowing head.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_A_engine#4A You could also go with a 2ZZ-GE engine from a Celica, Matrix, or Vibe, which makes about 180 hp. Although I don't know how easy it would be to adapt to a rear-drive transmission. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_ZZ_engine#2ZZ-GE Of course, it looks like you're already commited to the Mazda BP at this point. |
Most 4age's I see in the Starlets have to be converted to EFI, or have been converted. Getting a T50 trans is tricky. I might as well buy a whole ae86.
A 2zzge would be sweet, but a trans would be the very hard, would also need custom headers. Really for what I purchased the BP for and the aftermarket for it, it's worth the extra effort of installing it. |
3 Attachment(s)
I got the mount welded up at school today.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1453779593 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1453779593 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1453779593 |
3 Attachment(s)
|
4 Attachment(s)
I got some more parts in today.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456361191 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456361191 I was able to set up a nice little bench test to make sure it was all going to work. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456361191 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456361191 I ran a line to the engine and started it. It took a bit of cranking but eventually it started and ran for about 10 seconds around 1800rpm. So atleast everything seems good with that. I need to figure out if I can run this pump returnless or not. Right now when I hook it up, it build pressure, makes a strong humming sound, then changes tone. Not sure if this pump has an internal relief valve or something? |
If I were you I'd re-do those mounts somehow. Miata engine mounts are hardly known for strength and it looks like you welded on the backside of a metal plate with rubber bonded on the other side. I wouldn't think that is good for the rubber.
|
The welding instructor dunked the mount in water several times while welding it. Not good for the weld but it kept from melting the rubber.
That's the only mount like that and it's the stock Starlet mount. The others I have poly bushings and steel tubing for. |
27 Attachment(s)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 I also put the starlet radiator in it and let the engine run for awhile. I needed to flush the coolant anyway. It's nice to see the car shake as the engine idles. So all the welding from now on is mine. :D https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 It's cramped by that motor mount. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 Anyway, today was finally the day. I was able to drive it. I finished the trans mount, welded the driveshaft, finished the clutch, bled the brake and clutch, and a bunch of little things. It's fun to drive, really fun to drive. It's way too loud though, I need to get some more tubing on it and quiet it down a bit. I was wearing some ear muffs and it was still too loud in the cab. Otherwise first gear is hard to get traction in(it was wet though) and second gear hooks pretty good. Got up to highway speeds, 5th gear about 3k rpms and there wasn't any obnoxious vibrations. (Guess my driveshaft jig worked) Couple of small ones but they were there before . Anyway, time for pics. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 Welds weren't as good as I wanted, but my welder was acting up and that's the best I could do. (It hasn't broken yet!) I fixed a bunch of vacuum leaks, coolant sensor (ecm thought it was -40C!) and alternator plug and went for another drive. About halfway through my driveway the engine starts bucking acting like it's starved for fuel. Eventually I realized the afpr is failing(?) If I ran the pump it would hold fine for a few seconds at 58psi, then make a strange noise and the pressure would start to drop and hover around 10 psi. I towed the car back home and took the afpr apart. The diaphram wasn't tore or anything. I put it back on the car and tried it, held fine at 58psi for atleast a minute. Not sure if it really is bad or not? Maybe there was a peice of crud stuck in there holding it open? Seems like it was a clogged filter, hasn't happened since. I've been messing around with it trying to fix little problems. I put the starlet wiring back in and now I have taillights again. I also welded some more exhaust in so now it's tolerable, still loud but not near as bad. Also grabbed a video of running and pulling in the garage. http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...ps7srjqsze.mp4 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458264403 http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...pstqq6bvw6.jpg And before you say anything, yes the brake lines are going to be moved, no the radiator is not staying, and no, the vice grip battery is staying. It's called a quick release battery terminal. Alright, diagnosis time. 2 issues right now. Surging idle If I unplug IAC problem goes away and idles fine around 850 rpm. When warmed up, engine revs to 2k and back to 1k. Repeats this behavior. I took a vacuum gauge and I am getting 20 in/lbs at idle with the iac unplugged (to get steady idle) Scanner shows 9% throttle when no throttle is applied. TPS shows clean sweep from .5 volts all the way up to 3.8 volts. (??? off maybe) Surging revving If I unplug TPS, this problem goes away. When idling or driving (when driving it bucks) if you press the gas less than 1/4 throttle and hold it. Revs will hold for a second and drop to around 1k, and then back to before. |
Sorry, totally did not mean to double post.
I'll use this crap post to update, turns out the high idle was caused by the neutral switch. As soon as I plugged it in, nice closed loop idle. |
5 Attachment(s)
So I've been driving it around lately, so far so good. Some little kinks I'm working out but the engine wants to live.
There's one problem that's a headscratcher, randomly, if I get on it and get up to 4-6k it'll peter out and lose power. Sometimes it really pulls, and others it peters out. I believe the fuel hardline is 5/16, possibly not enough flow at higher rpms? Other than that I put a muffler on it, Wix Miata fuel filter, and a brand new Denso Miata radiator in it. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1460337595 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1460337595 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1460337595 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1460337595 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1460337595 |
Just found the build thread section, sorry I posted this in the wrong section. If a mod could move this to the correct build thread section, that'd be great.
|
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:48 PM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands