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Old 12-24-2015, 12:34 AM   #1
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Default BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)

Okay, so I've had this 1981 Toyota Starlet for about a year now. Rwd short wheel base and light (1800lbs) so perfect platform to build on.

Anyway, got the car running and then painted it.




Anyway, I wanted to start working on making it faster, bunch of different ideas I had, 350 V8, 4.3 V6, flat 4, I found a wrecked 01 Miata at the junkyard. Best part it was Memorial day weekend, so that meant half price.

Here is a list of what I got for $256
Engine Complete with all sensors, alternator, WP, exhaust, intake, etc
5spd transmission
Clutch pedal with cylinder
Driveshaft
Almost the entire cars wiring harness.

Anyway, I got the engine home a few months ago, got all the wiring hooked up and tried to fire it, no dice. I came to the conclusion it was the Immobilizer, mostly because the key I got from the car was aftermarket and wouldn't read.

So after $150 for another ECU, Immobilizer, and key I started working again. ( crazy these three parts cost 2/3 what I paid for the whole shebang)

Still no spark...

As of right now it's sitting in my garage with the wiring laid out on the floor and I am trying to get the engine fired off of ether; after that I will hook up a fuel pump and try to get it to fire off of it's own fuel.

Here is what I have done/tested

Checked all grounds and grounded everything that normally bolts to the car.
Verified the wiring between the coils, cam sensor, crank senor wiring to the ECU - all GOOD
Resistance of the coils is the same - unlikely they both failed
No fault codes
IAT showing good
ECT showing good
Engine cranks quickly and voltage drops to about 10v when cranking
Tach does NOT move when cranking
MAF is hooked up and shows 1.0g/s when cranking
Crank sensor is gapped properly and cleaned

Okay, onto the complicated part.

My scanner shows 228rpm when cranking. If I UNPLUG the CAM sensor, the scanner shows 0 when cranking. Now, I figured that the CRANK sensor would give crank signal to the scanner too?

From what I have read the CAM sensor is for fuel and the CRANK sensor is for ignition, is this true?

Also, is it true that the TACH moves when cranking? My brother's 02 Protege5 does NOT move when cranking. None of my vehicles do.

If someone could do me huge favor it would really help with my diagnostic; if someone would plug in their scanner and unplug the CAM sensor (the one on the valve cover) and see if their scanner shows rpm when cranking.

Hopefully you fellas can help me diagnose and stay tuned for more updates on the swap.
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BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-5b501e90-969f-4b78-a286-45b729b08962_zpswyvt4cs1.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-4cadf30a-5bae-4b1f-8045-7e7a30a4c7cb_zpsn7lh9jcm.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-fccbb930-0aa0-45f9-891c-253477bed22b_zps0lbfkw0k.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-img_0582_zpsg1r7msai.jpg  
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Old 12-24-2015, 06:15 AM   #2
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I definitely get a moving tach while cranking.
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Old 12-24-2015, 09:13 AM   #3
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how did you gap the crank sensor?
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Old 12-24-2015, 12:02 PM   #4
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What year model is the wiring? What about the ECU?

There was in change in the way the main relay is activated. It went from being key controlled to ECU controlled sometime around 2004. Took me 3 sets of ECU/immobilizers/keys before I sat down with the wiring diagrams and figured that out.

Try pulling the main relay and jumper the appropriate terminals. You will have to figure out which ones since I am lazy. If that fixes it, you may have to do a little creative wiring or buy another ECU set.
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Old 12-24-2015, 01:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryansmoneypit View Post
I definitely get a moving tach while cranking.
Thanks for the input, seems I have two people saying the tach doesn't move and you say it moves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
how did you gap the crank sensor?
I used a feeler gauge, I combined a couple of the thicker ones because I didn't have a single one that was big enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satisaii View Post
What year model is the wiring? What about the ECU?

There was in change in the way the main relay is activated. It went from being key controlled to ECU controlled sometime around 2004. Took me 3 sets of ECU/immobilizers/keys before I sat down with the wiring diagrams and figured that out.

Try pulling the main relay and jumper the appropriate terminals. You will have to figure out which ones since I am lazy. If that fixes it, you may have to do a little creative wiring or buy another ECU set.
The wiring is out of the wrecker, 2001. The Ecu set came out of a 2003. I remember reading about a bad main relay can cause spark issues. When I unplug the relay and plug it back in, it clicks and I took that as it working but I will look up the diagram and jump the terminals thanks!


Thanks for the help guys!
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Old 01-01-2016, 01:21 PM   #6
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I probed the wires for the crank sensor and when cranking I get pulses of 500mv, so seems like the crank sensor is not the problem. Right now I can't think of anything else that would give no spark.
The weird part is I don't get cranking signal with the cam sensor unplugged.
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Old 01-01-2016, 01:54 PM   #7
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If your get 200+ rpms through the OBD-II, then the ECU is reading the crank and cam sensors correctly.

Replace one of the injectors with a noid light, check if it blinks during cranking. If it doesn't, check if one of the two wires has spark. If it does but the noid light doesn't blink, you probably have an immobilizer issue. Hookup a bulb to the immobilizer's light output, and check if it goes on for 1 second when you switch the ignition on. I assume the coil antenna is connected to the module, and you have the key inside the antenna. And of course the module is connected to the ECU.
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Old 01-01-2016, 02:27 PM   #8
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When I switch the key ON, the immobilizer light in the cluster comes on and stays on.

With my first ECU set it would come on for a second and blink three times and repeat, for DTC 03. Indicating it wasn't reading the key, so I bought a working ECU set.

I have yet to have ANY spark at all out of this engine.

Okay, after some more troubleshooting.

First thing I found out was that the scanner does NOT show cranking when the CKP is unplugged. So that means the CKP is doing something. After that I went through checking grounds, and found that the signal wire for the coils are GROUNDED, all the time. So I unplugged the ECU and the ground goes away, so that means the ECU is sending a ground signal all the time? The actual ground for the coils is still good.
Third thing, I am not getting any injector pulse, but I am getting voltage..

I started looking at the difference between the 01 and 03 wiring harness and there are a few differences. First big one is that there is a wire that comes of the main relay and goes straight into the ECU on the 03, the 01 wiring does NOT have that wire in that spot. Instead that same color wire comes from a rollover valve and goes into a different spot on the ECU.
If you feel like being a nice person and helping out but don't understand what I am saying; here is the two diagrams I am studying.
http://www.mellens.net/mazda/mazda_m...001_wiring.pdf
http://www.mellens.net/mazda/mazda_m...003_wiring.pdf

It's pin 3E and 3H that are the messy ones.

Let me know what you guys think.

Last edited by ajay842; 01-01-2016 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 01-02-2016, 07:17 AM   #9
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Is the wiring harness from a '01 and the new ECU/immo/key from a '03?
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Old 01-02-2016, 02:07 PM   #10
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Yes.
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Old 01-03-2016, 03:44 PM   #11
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I'm really starting to think it might be the immobilizer again..
This engine SHOULD run, I don't know what the problem is. The fact I have no spark or injector pulse is something.

I'm not getting the security light flashing every 30 seconds or so when the key is off. But when the key is ON the light comes on and stays on? Don't know how the light works other than DTCs. Man what I would do to have a running 01 Miata in my driveway for diagnostics.

I checked all the wiring for the Imm. circuit and all is good. If I remove the antenna coil so it doesn't have the key next to it, it gives the DTC 03 so I know it's doing something.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:50 AM   #12
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The problem may be with the ECU. The 03-05 have a main relay that is not switched on by the ignition switch, but from the ECU. The ECU activates the relay and expects to see power on pin 4S. It is possible that if the ECU doesn't see 12V on pin 4S, it never fully switches on.
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Old 01-04-2016, 01:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverant View Post
The problem may be with the ECU. The 03-05 have a main relay that is not switched on by the ignition switch, but from the ECU. The ECU activates the relay and expects to see power on pin 4S. It is possible that if the ECU doesn't see 12V on pin 4S, it never fully switches on.
Oh Reverant you are the MAN!! It totoally worked, I looked at the diagram and you were 100% right, pin 4S needed power. I stuck a pin in there and set 12v to it and seemed like 1/2 the engine came alive, IAC started buzzing, alternator light was flashing. I crank it and the noid light started flashing and soon it started sparking! I can't express how much of a relief that is thank you Reverant!! Now I can finally move on to trimming the harness and getting the engine in the car!
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Old 01-04-2016, 03:48 PM   #14
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Cheers.
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Old 01-05-2016, 08:16 PM   #15
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Alright, I've about got the harness cut up, about 1/3 of it has been removed. All unnecessary wiring, lights, HVAC, airbags, etc
I nabbed a video of the engine running, well firing on all 4 cylinders, the light flashing is the injector.





The alternator failed on the Starlet, since I'm getting ready for the swap I'm not gonna replace it; hopefully I'll be pulling the engine back out. Then I can get some motor mounts and trans mount made and move on.
Attached Thumbnails
BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-5b781400-097a-450a-bd04-6ae3c2dca20f_zpsfmrtrbok.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-25fc3ecd-6d6b-4755-aec1-434e4c3c22e5_zps1s0wbjun.jpg  
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Old 01-07-2016, 10:19 PM   #16
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Progress!

I got the engine taken out and stripped the engine bay, I've had a slow brake fluid leak for awhile now and it's on the master cylinder, it stripped the paint. Thankfully it's just surface rust.


I looked at a new MC and found one for $4!!, yes 4$!

I am going to paint the engine bay while everything is stripped, I figured white with black brake lines, etc.


I also stripped the entire dash out, I have to cut the top of the transmission tunnel for the engine to fit, considering the engine is a rear sump pan, and the Starlet is a rear steer. Maybe it'll far enough back I can fit a normal radiator in.

Does anyone have experience making custom motor mounts here? By the time the engine has been moved back I won't be able to use the crossmember mounts, is it alright to weld a mount on the frame rail?


Other than that it's some small things like needing new brake lines and gas pedal.
Trans mount should be easy, the Miata trans has a perfect spot for a mount.

Attached Thumbnails
BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-d9e7b954-c7f8-40b1-95ec-63c234f0203f_zpsfzo1nino.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-6d7fc6d0-ae42-4855-8ffd-ef2876f31f90_zpswqosx0jg.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-797979ba-9c2e-422a-9aff-25a68370ec37_zps5m3nfz7d.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-ca744356-0c15-41be-aa1b-4e245f76822b_zpsko8pxiro.jpg  
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Old 01-07-2016, 10:21 PM   #17
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Sorry, did not mean to double post.
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BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-d9e7b954-c7f8-40b1-95ec-63c234f0203f_zpsfzo1nino.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-6d7fc6d0-ae42-4855-8ffd-ef2876f31f90_zpswqosx0jg.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-797979ba-9c2e-422a-9aff-25a68370ec37_zps5m3nfz7d.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-ca744356-0c15-41be-aa1b-4e245f76822b_zpsko8pxiro.jpg  
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:32 PM   #18
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I grabbed some pictures of where it is right now while it was still daylight. I speculate the boxing will be around where the heater core pipes normally go.


Unfortanetly the windshield has been leaking, (I hadn't realized as bad as it was until I got a floor mat and it starting PUDDLING in it) and it rusted a hole in the passenger side floor. Hopefully it's not any worse than it looks under that sound deadening. I'll have to cut and weld that.


Engine bay and framerails.






Okay, so this is when the motor mounts, line up.



Yea....too far forward





Right now I am only trying to cut what I absolutely have to. So if it's not straight, or it's notched, it's for a reason. I will make sure everything is straight when I weld it back.


There still needs to be some cut out before it's at the right angle.


That's the progress I made.
There was an evap line that was in those three in the trans tunnel. I will have to reroute the brake line and fuel return line that's there.

I just ordered some parts.
Wagner semi metallic brake pads
4 new caliper slider pins
2 new front brake hoses
Wagner front right caliper (bleeder on mine is froze)
Assorted exhaust tubing
Drilled, slotted and ventilated rotors

Hopefully all that stuff should be here before the end of the week.
I decided to wait on the brake and fuel lines because I might be able to bend mine and reroute them. If not Autozone has the flare tool and lines and fittings I need.
Attached Thumbnails
BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-e681312d-9357-43c0-abbc-c7cc239c3975_zpsutl1qr1w.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-c168b7d9-b490-4944-8601-620dab54da24_zpsdsxfqx0y.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-abe2ff92-cce9-4034-917e-26382f744fc5_zpsdeps1meh.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-3bcb3a28-c73a-4a67-8a2f-2e802ce5d2c6_zpsgugkw41b.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-40857833-75cd-4087-9996-16526d33f62b_zpsiu8bozvw.jpg  

BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-274459fa-8346-4e59-95d0-25d5a78f2745_zps5jovdb3m.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-ecc7a3f2-157c-4d41-bb79-8dbaa13762d6_zpsodtgzhg7.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-6baf3b08-ebbb-4b0d-8582-6e565ea1eb73_zpsjflfxfdf.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-6b4b3b49-d82a-4aa1-bb62-f67ead88a35b_zpso2ory74d.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-0b44eca6-65ef-4815-86df-905e27f62a9b_zpsghalytak.jpg  

BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-1e13f0fe-5c84-4207-b3ff-afd0148567de_zps1bjhqmnz.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-5cbf3367-2686-4c15-82fc-35667e559468_zps7mvxdb6v.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-88f1e5dd-51ce-447a-8915-a823d8b1d224_zpsppcbxlou.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-30858ed6-3aa6-4ae0-9bd6-0bbe022bda69_zpsfq5rxjr8.jpg   BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-45275403-ba94-404d-8e39-314f69245293_zps86ewxdgs.jpg  

BP-Z3 in a KP61 (1981 Toyota Starlet)-66d15ffa-33ab-433a-8b65-a7fa8af1f8df_zpsodaaje6o.jpg  
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Old 01-11-2016, 11:23 PM   #19
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Man 300 bucks for all that from the junk yard? DAMN. Sell that **** for at least a 1k profit and swap in an engine that sucks less, like a 4age, d16, or something from a john deere.
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Old 01-11-2016, 11:30 PM   #20
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Man 300 bucks for all that from the junk yard? DAMN. Sell that **** for at least a 1k profit and swap in an engine that sucks less, like a 4age, d16, or something from a john deere.
Haha yea the thought crossed my mind, but I didn't want to deal with the logistics of buying and selling engines. I do like the BP more than the 4AGE, mostly because it's already EFI, OBDII, and has 5sp and has proven to make 300hp fairly easy and I can swap in a 6 spd later on if I want.
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