Can my block be saved???
 

I bought a 2000 long block off ebay and it turned out to be a rusted piece of junk. Can a machine do anything to fix it? Anyone have any idea of a price?


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Ouch. You sure have bad luck!

If the rusting is only surface rust and there is no deep scores or other defects, it should take a rebore. The machine shops have different vats to get rid of the rust inside the block itself. If the bores are saveable, the rest probably is.

I just cant seem to get this thing back together... Any idea of a price on a stock rebuild?

That's a nice submarine engine you got there.

Depends what you do, what you replace, etc. Also depends on your goals. Pernsonally, I'd find a good used engine rather than build a new stock one. You'll spend 2K probably building a new stock one. That all cost considered. I'd find a good used motor for cheap and swap them myself. Do you have any U pull it yards around your area? There's two good ones within an hour of where I live on the coast. I got a spare long block for my car out of a 96' Kia sephia for 88 bucks. But I had to pull it myself.

I just got my block back from the machine shop and I'm picking the head up tomorrow. So far I'm in $750 for the block work, rebuilt head, piston rings, rod bearings, main bearings, and a gasket set. Still have to pick up a water pump and timing belt kit.

Not bad. Given that you specifically pointed out "piston rings" I'm guessing they didn't bore the holes. What all did the "block work" consist of besides dismantle, tank, and probably hone?

Actually, $750 sounds pretty damn cheap for anything I'd describe as a "head rebuild." Apart from lapping the valves, did he do anything else in there?

That block isn't as bad as some I've seen. You'll want to get a good hot tank cleaning before you do any other work on it. Hell, my dad and I rebuilt a Studebaker that looked a lot worse than that, and it ran just fine. We actually had to hammer the pistons out with a sledge and a block of wood.

If you decide to, you might check to see what it might cost to 'sleeve' that motor. Sleeving is where they machine your block, and slip in a cylinder to act as a new bore. Last I knew, they were $50.00 a hole. The good thing about doing this is that you might be able to get a Nikasil (sp?) cylinder, which is what they use in Mercedes. They have a higher nickel content, and they last a lifetime in normally aspirated engines, and last much longer in blown applications.

Thread drift....

If you have to sleeve it (seriously doubt it, but...), look into "wetsleeves". They make sleeves for increasing your bore if the bore spacing will allow it. I helped build a wetsleeved 351 windsor ford. You bore the cylinders out A LOT until you reach the size of the OD of the sleeves, by which point you have exposed the water jackets from boring it way too big. Then you press in the wetsleeves and bore it out. With wetsleeves and a stroker crank, we turned a 351 into a 440 small block. Bore ended up being 4.2", .200" over stock. I doubt you can get away with that much on a BP, but research will tell. \\\

Ok, back on topic..

I would either build a new motor with forged stuff or get a used motor for cheap and save up to do a good build later.

I took them the bare block. They pulled the oil galley plugs, freeze plugs, checked cylinder bore with a dial gauge, deglazed, surfaced (decked), tanked, replaced freeze plugs and machined new oil galley plugs. $450 for this

The head's a complete rebuild from Dover machine. Strip, bead blast, replace valve guides, seals, sonic clean the valves, head, cams, bearings, re-lap the valves, replace HLAs, check spring height, replace retainers. $375 for this

Including the purchase of the spare motor, I'm still under $1000.

Well, if they had bored it out or cut the valve seats or ground the valves in, or adjusted the valves, that would have run the bill up considerably.

They would've bored the block for $50 but I think you're right about the valve job.

Well damn then you just got the hook up. Around here shops charge 40-50 PER CYLINDER to bore a motor. Who builds your motors?

I tried a new shop this time, Dixie Performance Machine. They gave me $100 off since they had my motor over 2 weeks. I think the Miata motor was the smallest one in the shop. Next to the vat was a ginormous big block. I could put my fist in the cylinder and it didn't touch any walls. The machine shop guy said it was a 624. The owner's planning on spraying 750 on top of that :eek5:

don't get the nikasil (whooptydo if Mercedes used it, so did BMW) BMW used it in their M60B40 and the metal reacted with low quality American gas, damaging the top of the cylinder, you want Alusil (if you would even consider sleeving)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M60

Look mommy. I learned something today. :)

I believe my stating of information that anyone could have found on the internet to possibly save somebody a headache down the road greatly outweighs the 20 minutes I'm sure it took you to come up with what you think is a valid response

I think you might have misunderstood the intent of his response...

As for my response, after searching I see that BMW has indeed had some problems with Nikasil cylinders. However, they appear to be the exception and not the rule. Mercedes have a reputation (as do -most- BMWs) to go for 200K plus and still have good compression. I think there is something more than meets the eye at play here. What's more, I found this while searching...

http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/jag...4959921-1.html

To add to the posters' statements, some of you may have noticed that the US now has ULSD, or Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel. For the whole year of '06, VW didn't have any diesels in the US because they refused to make any to deal with the sulfur problem. In the long run, all this has done is increase the demand for the diesels, which was smart.

But back to the point; I think the older engines that might have had an issue either did not have sulfur fuels in their area, or there was already such a build-up of carbon in the squish area of the bore that the sulfur'ed fuel could not get to it to cause a problem.

At this point, this is all just theory, but from where I am sitting it is plausible.

since I dragged us off topic, skip the sleeves and see if you can't just get it bored out to help clean up the cylinder walls

No, I actually didn't know that. I thought it was an interesting read and really gained something from your input. No sarcasm. Just a 5 second response stating my thoughts. :)

On the other hand. I say the motor can be resurrected. I've seen worse. You think that looks bad? My dad's 1949 F-1 was bad all over before restoration. And the motor? Geez. But the work needed to bring that flathead back around wasn't as much as we thought it would be. Even with the oversized pistons needed due to the bore and hone that was required to clean the cylinder walls. After it was all said and done, the motor rebuild only cost about 8 grand which isn't bad, considering the prices of rebuild parts for flatheads. I mean. Genuine flatheads (not the French or foreign motors).

Yours just needs to be cleaned and machined I bet. But I haven't seen it in person.

Back before the war we used to rebuild them flat heads yes sir. Send em out for rebuild. Come back with knurled pistons to get them them tight again and fresh leather in the bearings. Good for another 40K. And she'd fire right up and get'on down the road.

I paid $1100 for bore, balance, head rebuild / casting clean-up, resurface, all bearings, a few other little things, and assembly.

bore it or get another block. Considering the price, I will probably never put a junk-yard motor in my cars.

Just a quick update. I decided to take a trip to harbor freight and buy one of these bad boys.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/pho...7199/97164.gif

Seeing as only one cylinder was really rusted i decided the $15 was worth a shot. Attached it to my drill and maybe did about 3 rotations and moved in an up and down motion to keep the crosshatch on the cylinder walls. Cleans up the cylinder pretty nice, and now the engine can rotate freely. Picked up a headgasket and used my leakdown tester to check and see what i had. The other three cylinder showed about 8% leakage and the "rusty" cylinder showed about 10-12%. I just going to drop it in as is and hope that when i run the engine it cleans up the wall even better and doesn't burn too much oil. What do u guys think?

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Just because it's you I am predicting epic fail.

I know, I have had some pretty bad luck lately... I'm thinking it's time to make my own. Anyone else have a prediction? I know it will run, how much smoke/power i make is another story.

Epic failure in your very near future. Super accelerated wear leading to massive oil consumption is in your future. Did you "hone" it with the shortblock still assembled?!! Remeber the "epic" thread when the guy put that headgasket repair stuff in his oil?

Seriously this is gonna be a HUGE waste of time and money. Just get the damn thing bored out and get oversize pistons. You're pissing in the wind right now.

Really not an option... Guess we will have to wait and see what happens.

What about getting a good used short block from a local pick and pull? I said this earlier and you never commented.

I was going to try and find a kia block with the mbsp but i just dont have the time. I cant believe that dumb fuck shipped me an engine with no spark plugs. That motor is so clean besides the one cylinder. Even if i can get maybe 10k miles out of it i will be happy. Motor was sold only having 90k.

Are we talking about the same engine? The pics in the first post look terrible. "so clean" is not exactly how I would describe those cylinders. And I'm guessing from your other post you already assembled the engine? If this was a car you were trying to get running long enough to sell it, I could sorta see doing this, though it would be dishonest to the poor sucker that bought it. But you're planning on boosting this engine?

Also, from the first pics that motor had a blown headgasket between cylinders 2&3. You should at least put a straight edge on it and make sure the deck's not warped. Also have to ask yourself what blew the HG. If this was an engine from a stock car it likely overheated which is not good on the pistons and rings. I had a 302 that was severely overheated and blew both HG's. Replaced them. Motor ran, but was very "weak" and would loose oil pressure at idle once it warmed up completely. Tore it down to rebuild it and damn, the pistons were like purple colored scorched on the back sides.

ok ok. What short blocks should i be looking for? The 99 short block was of higher compression than the earlier model 1.8L's correct? I would have liked the higher compression for better torque down low during autox.

90-95 8.8:1
95.5-97 9.0:1
99-00 9.5:1
01+ 10.0:1
msm 9.0:1?

OK i found a few sephia motors with low mileage for cheap. If i use the 00' head on that block what else would i need to change? I would assume i would have to switch the oil pans because of the fwd to rwd switch. Will the 00 pan clear the MBSP on the sephia block?

95-97 Kia Sephia engines are mazda BP 1.8's. Same engine the 95-97 miata got for the most part. 98+ kia engines are 100% different and nothing is compatible so don't buy one of these. :)

The short blocks are identical for the most part, but the kia engine has the MBSP. You'll need an 01+ oil pan to put on the kia short block so that it will fit in a miata. Some say you can grind some spots on the oil pan and gain the needed clearance to run a regular oil pan. No experience here but it's been done successfully. I plan to make the stock pan fit if I ever switch in my spare kia engine.

Higher compression is EXTREMELY overrated. Like seriously OMG 4realllz. 8:1 vs 9:1 is at MAX a 4% increase in power. For example at 3K an 8:1 motor has 85 HP. Your talking a maximum gain of 3.4 HP with the higher comp motor assuming perfect tuning. Negligible. Once your in boost low comp has the advantage of running more boost with less heat to make more power reliably.

Try checking www.solomiata.com

He might have that info there.


edit: nevermind, pat had your answer.

one quickie... Do i need to switch over the oil pickup tube from the 00' block? So it would be... Switch heads, clearance/swap 00' oil pan, swap over 00' oil pickup. Then i will be back where i was but this time with slightly less compression and the added strength of the MBSP. Not to bad of a trade off i guess. Just a pita. Anything worth saving off the kia head to try and resell to the Miata crowd or is it all junk? I guess i could also sell the 00' crank and pistons to re-coupe a few bucks as well.

The kia engine is front sump IIRC, so yeah you'll definately have to swap the pickup tube. (notice I mispelled definately using an "a" instead of an "i" between the n and the t? I'd sell a kidney to shake off that bad habit)


I will say this: Buy the mazda complete engine gasket set for a 99. It's worth it's weight in gold. Nothing sucks more than "new" shit breaking or failing. And it's actually like 190 for everything including the good MLS HG.

Breakdown for a RELIABLE engine:

Get 95-97 kia engine that's in GOOD condition. Preferably one from an automatic (99% sure auto trans engines have a 6500 rev limiter and hence the engine is like "new" as it has never really been worked hard) Preferably, you will pull the engine yourself and can pick and choose the right engine. Mileage isn't everything, though it's certainly a consideration. Reading the sparkplugs will give you a pretty good idea about the health of the engine. So will pulling the valve cover and inspecting for cleanliness.

Perform compression test and LEAKDOWN (read what I just said again) to verify you are buying a good engine not a worn leaky engine. You've already got a worn leaky one. No need to buy another right?

Make note of leakdown numbers.

Remove head, oil pan, pickup tube, water pump, oil seals, and timing belt covers from kia engine.

Install new (note I said new, not old, not rebuilt, not "I bought this last year it doesn't have much time on it") water pump for a miata.

Clearance oil pan.

Install miata pickup tube

With a good torque wrench, retorque all main and rod bearing bolts to tight end of factory spec

Install oil pan using good gasket sealer stuff.

Install new front and main oil seals.

Check deck of block and surface of head for warpage using a straight edge and a feeler gauge. Odds are the block will be perfect and the head will be within spec if has never been overheated. If the head is warped past
spec, it has to be resurfaced flat again. If it's warped, it's because the engine it was removed from was overheated. Have the head chemically checked for cracks at the machine shop that surfaces it.

Use a 99+ multi layer steel head gasket. Mazda gaskets are good and so are Fel Pro. I'm running a Fel Pro and it's identical to the mazda gasket.

Install head and torque to top end of factory spec.

Install new cam seals.

Install new high quality timing belt and miata timing belt covers. I'd suggest replacing the tensioner and idler pullies while I was in there for peace of mind. I say this cause I cheaped out and didn't and now I have an idler making a bad noise. Should seize and break the belt any day now. :mad:

New radiator hoses w/ real hose clamps and new belts NOT overtightened are a must too.

You do all of that and you'll have done something. Skimp anywhere, and you're compromising reliability.

Just want to reiterate what I've said in other posts. The MLS headgaskets started in 94, not 99 so any 94+ gasket kit will be good.

He's probably right. I thought what Paul's saying until I was "corrected" that it started in 99, though I could swear I've seen a MLS gasket on a 95 Protege.

Escort GTs had MLS gaskets since 91, if that helps...