Can my block be saved??? - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Engine Performance This section is for discussion on all engine building related questions.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-24-2008, 08:43 PM   #1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Central, NJ
Posts: 487
Total Cats: 1
Default Can my block be saved???

I bought a 2000 long block off ebay and it turned out to be a rusted piece of junk. Can a machine do anything to fix it? Anyone have any idea of a price?




MikeRiv87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2008, 08:49 PM   #2
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Ouch. You sure have bad luck!

If the rusting is only surface rust and there is no deep scores or other defects, it should take a rebore. The machine shops have different vats to get rid of the rust inside the block itself. If the bores are saveable, the rest probably is.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2008, 09:00 PM   #3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Central, NJ
Posts: 487
Total Cats: 1
Default

I just cant seem to get this thing back together... Any idea of a price on a stock rebuild?
MikeRiv87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2008, 10:06 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 884
Total Cats: 0
Default

That's a nice submarine engine you got there.
firedog25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2008, 10:06 PM   #5
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Depends what you do, what you replace, etc. Also depends on your goals. Pernsonally, I'd find a good used engine rather than build a new stock one. You'll spend 2K probably building a new stock one. That all cost considered. I'd find a good used motor for cheap and swap them myself. Do you have any U pull it yards around your area? There's two good ones within an hour of where I live on the coast. I got a spare long block for my car out of a 96' Kia sephia for 88 bucks. But I had to pull it myself.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2008, 06:32 PM   #6
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 157
Total Cats: 0
Default

I just got my block back from the machine shop and I'm picking the head up tomorrow. So far I'm in $750 for the block work, rebuilt head, piston rings, rod bearings, main bearings, and a gasket set. Still have to pick up a water pump and timing belt kit.
quadmasta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2008, 06:58 PM   #7
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,326
Total Cats: 1,926
Default

Not bad. Given that you specifically pointed out "piston rings" I'm guessing they didn't bore the holes. What all did the "block work" consist of besides dismantle, tank, and probably hone?

Actually, $750 sounds pretty damn cheap for anything I'd describe as a "head rebuild." Apart from lapping the valves, did he do anything else in there?
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2008, 07:21 PM   #8
Elite Member
iTrader: (21)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 5,687
Total Cats: 560
Default

That block isn't as bad as some I've seen. You'll want to get a good hot tank cleaning before you do any other work on it. Hell, my dad and I rebuilt a Studebaker that looked a lot worse than that, and it ran just fine. We actually had to hammer the pistons out with a sledge and a block of wood.
rleete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2008, 08:18 PM   #9
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 267
Total Cats: 0
Default

If you decide to, you might check to see what it might cost to 'sleeve' that motor. Sleeving is where they machine your block, and slip in a cylinder to act as a new bore. Last I knew, they were $50.00 a hole. The good thing about doing this is that you might be able to get a Nikasil (sp?) cylinder, which is what they use in Mercedes. They have a higher nickel content, and they last a lifetime in normally aspirated engines, and last much longer in blown applications.
fahrvergnugen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2008, 08:40 PM   #10
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Thread drift....

If you have to sleeve it (seriously doubt it, but...), look into "wetsleeves". They make sleeves for increasing your bore if the bore spacing will allow it. I helped build a wetsleeved 351 windsor ford. You bore the cylinders out A LOT until you reach the size of the OD of the sleeves, by which point you have exposed the water jackets from boring it way too big. Then you press in the wetsleeves and bore it out. With wetsleeves and a stroker crank, we turned a 351 into a 440 small block. Bore ended up being 4.2", .200" over stock. I doubt you can get away with that much on a BP, but research will tell. \\\

Ok, back on topic..

I would either build a new motor with forged stuff or get a used motor for cheap and save up to do a good build later.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2008, 08:50 PM   #11
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 157
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
Not bad. Given that you specifically pointed out "piston rings" I'm guessing they didn't bore the holes. What all did the "block work" consist of besides dismantle, tank, and probably hone?
I took them the bare block. They pulled the oil galley plugs, freeze plugs, checked cylinder bore with a dial gauge, deglazed, surfaced (decked), tanked, replaced freeze plugs and machined new oil galley plugs. $450 for this

The head's a complete rebuild from Dover machine. Strip, bead blast, replace valve guides, seals, sonic clean the valves, head, cams, bearings, re-lap the valves, replace HLAs, check spring height, replace retainers. $375 for this

Including the purchase of the spare motor, I'm still under $1000.
quadmasta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2008, 08:59 PM   #12
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by quadmasta View Post
I took them the bare block. They pulled the oil galley plugs, freeze plugs, checked cylinder bore with a dial gauge, deglazed, surfaced (decked), tanked, replaced freeze plugs and machined new oil galley plugs. $450 for this

The head's a complete rebuild from Dover machine. Strip, bead blast, replace valve guides, seals, sonic clean the valves, head, cams, bearings, re-lap the valves, replace HLAs, check spring height, replace retainers. $375 for this

Including the purchase of the spare motor, I'm still under $1000.
Well, if they had bored it out or cut the valve seats or ground the valves in, or adjusted the valves, that would have run the bill up considerably.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2008, 09:06 AM   #13
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 157
Total Cats: 0
Default

They would've bored the block for $50 but I think you're right about the valve job.
quadmasta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2008, 09:18 AM   #14
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Well damn then you just got the hook up. Around here shops charge 40-50 PER CYLINDER to bore a motor. Who builds your motors?
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2008, 10:08 AM   #15
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 157
Total Cats: 0
Default

I tried a new shop this time, Dixie Performance Machine. They gave me $100 off since they had my motor over 2 weeks. I think the Miata motor was the smallest one in the shop. Next to the vat was a ginormous big block. I could put my fist in the cylinder and it didn't touch any walls. The machine shop guy said it was a 624. The owner's planning on spraying 750 on top of that
quadmasta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2008, 11:19 AM   #16
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lexington, SC
Posts: 2,084
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrvergnugen View Post
If you decide to, you might check to see what it might cost to 'sleeve' that motor. Sleeving is where they machine your block, and slip in a cylinder to act as a new bore. Last I knew, they were $50.00 a hole. The good thing about doing this is that you might be able to get a Nikasil (sp?) cylinder, which is what they use in Mercedes. They have a higher nickel content, and they last a lifetime in normally aspirated engines, and last much longer in blown applications.
don't get the nikasil (whooptydo if Mercedes used it, so did BMW) BMW used it in their M60B40 and the metal reacted with low quality American gas, damaging the top of the cylinder, you want Alusil (if you would even consider sleeving)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M60
mazda/nissan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2008, 12:13 PM   #17
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Posts: 350
Total Cats: -1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazda/nissan View Post
don't get the nikasil (whooptydo if Mercedes used it, so did BMW) BMW used it in their M60B40 and the metal reacted with low quality American gas, damaging the top of the cylinder, you want Alusil (if you would even consider sleeving)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M60
Look mommy. I learned something today.
944obscene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2008, 04:04 PM   #18
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lexington, SC
Posts: 2,084
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 944obscene View Post
Look mommy. I learned something today.
I believe my stating of information that anyone could have found on the internet to possibly save somebody a headache down the road greatly outweighs the 20 minutes I'm sure it took you to come up with what you think is a valid response
mazda/nissan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2008, 04:36 PM   #19
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 267
Total Cats: 0
Default

I think you might have misunderstood the intent of his response...

As for my response, after searching I see that BMW has indeed had some problems with Nikasil cylinders. However, they appear to be the exception and not the rule. Mercedes have a reputation (as do -most- BMWs) to go for 200K plus and still have good compression. I think there is something more than meets the eye at play here. What's more, I found this while searching...

Quote:
. . . unless you live in a high-sulphur area, and even then: (a) your engine has already been replaced, or (b) you bought your gas at one of the brand-name chains who went low-sulphur before being required to by law. Either way you are off the hook.

These days, sulphur is becoming almost as rare in American gasoline as WMD are in Iraq. Which can only be GOOD news for us Nikasil-engine owners, because we will soon be able to drive in less fortunate areas of the country, like Texas! (J/K - I don't know the current sulphur levels in the Lone Star state.)

Here is an excerpt from a letter written by one Marilyn Bennett of the EPA, in reply to my request for information about regional suplhur levels in gasoline:

"The federal gasoline sulfur regulation requires all refiners and importers of gasoline produced for use in the U.S. to produce low sulfur gasoline beginning in 2004. The regulation provides for a phase-in period in which refiners and importers must meet a 120 ppm average sulfur level in 2004, a 90 ppm average in 2005, and a 30 ppm average thereafter. There are also per-gallon "cap" limits to ensure that no gallon of gasoline will contain an unusally high sulfur content as a result of averaging. Many refiners will be producing gasoline with sulfur levels well below these limits. We believe that the federal low sulfur program will significantly reduce the average sulfur level in gasoline nationwide."

As luck would have it, the manufacturers (BMW, Jaguar and other premium lines) phased out Nikasil just as the gas companies were phasing out sulphur. Today, a few years after the fact, whatever damage was going to be done by the stuff has already been one. For the vast, VAST majority of Nikasil-engined owners who have NOT been affected by high-sulphur gas, our now middle-aged engines are about the reap the benefits of Nikasil, among which are longer engine life and a pleasant reprieve from the decrease in performance and fuel economy that usually accompany higher mileage. (I know this for a fact. When I sold my Nikasil-engined 1995 BMW 740i it had 120K on the clock and was as tight as new -- BMW's leak-down test confirmed the engine's compression was at "new" specification.)

Nikasil is a far, FAR more elegant solution to the problem of heat management in alloy engine blocks than cast-iron cylinder liners. Nikasil technology is still used in the finest piston aviation and racing engines, which have have never suffered from sulphur headaches: pilots and racers always use reliable gasoline.

In fact, there was never anything wrong with Nikasil in mass-produced automobile engines. It was the gas that was bad, and finally it's better.
http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/jag...4959921-1.html

To add to the posters' statements, some of you may have noticed that the US now has ULSD, or Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel. For the whole year of '06, VW didn't have any diesels in the US because they refused to make any to deal with the sulfur problem. In the long run, all this has done is increase the demand for the diesels, which was smart.

But back to the point; I think the older engines that might have had an issue either did not have sulfur fuels in their area, or there was already such a build-up of carbon in the squish area of the bore that the sulfur'ed fuel could not get to it to cause a problem.

At this point, this is all just theory, but from where I am sitting it is plausible.
fahrvergnugen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2008, 04:44 PM   #20
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lexington, SC
Posts: 2,084
Total Cats: 0
Default

since I dragged us off topic, skip the sleeves and see if you can't just get it bored out to help clean up the cylinder walls
mazda/nissan is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brakes ???? tomiboy Race Prep 124 11-02-2015 04:55 PM
Low oil pressure after 1.8 swap and new turbo setup JesseTheNoob DIY Turbo Discussion 15 09-30-2015 03:44 PM
wiring wideband ground to battery terminal btabor ECUs and Tuning 10 09-28-2015 06:33 PM
New 1st generation miata Owner (southwest PA) mtpratt32 Meet and Greet 3 09-24-2015 10:42 PM
2003 VVT Head/Valve Cover/Actuator/Coil Packs - Low Miles! - $250 StratoBlue1109 Miata parts for sale/trade 7 09-24-2015 04:50 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:00 PM.