Notices
Engine Performance This section is for discussion on all engine building related questions.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by: KPower

Can a wastegate flap be pushed open from the inside directly by boost?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Aug 8, 2021 | 07:03 AM
  #1  
EddieJT's Avatar
Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 50
Total Cats: 2
From: Surrey, UK
Default Can a wastegate flap be pushed open from the inside directly by boost?

I'm on the standard actuator spring (probably 7PSI), and with an EBC at 100% duty I'm only getting a max of 12.5PSI.

I read a lot about boost creep on the TD04, so ported my exhaust housing to the wastegate heavily (though did not touch the material that seals with the flap); is it possible that my porting has diverted the gasses so much to the wastegate that the flap is being pushed open from inside and overcoming the actuator spring? Is this a thing?
Old Aug 8, 2021 | 08:38 AM
  #2  
rwyatt365's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,459
Total Cats: 132
From: ATL
Default

Yes - depending on the strength of your wastegate spring, your level of boost and the type of actuator - the wastegate can (sometimes) easily be pushed open by exhaust gasses. Your porting might contribute to that, but those other factors might outweigh the porting.
Old Aug 8, 2021 | 10:07 AM
  #3  
EddieJT's Avatar
Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 50
Total Cats: 2
From: Surrey, UK
Default

This is my MAP against RPM. My boost solenoid is at 100% duty at the top of the revs but it still won't make more than 12PSI.


I'm tempted to tie down my wastegate, gently accelerate to 5000rpm, and then floor it to see if I can make more than 12PSI. This will prove I'm experiencing the exhaust gasses pushing directly pushing the flap, will it not?

Last edited by EddieJT; Aug 8, 2021 at 01:19 PM.
Old Aug 8, 2021 | 12:06 PM
  #4  
der_vierte's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 804
Total Cats: 116
From: GER
Default

Yes, I have the same problem right now...

More preload/stiffer spring is what you need
Old Aug 8, 2021 | 01:18 PM
  #5  
EddieJT's Avatar
Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 50
Total Cats: 2
From: Surrey, UK
Default

So if I'm currently making 12 PSI and want to hit 14, what spring rating would you suggest, bearing in mind I do have a boost controller and am probably currently on a 7PSI spring.
Old Aug 8, 2021 | 01:30 PM
  #6  
WigglingWaffles's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 494
Total Cats: 41
From: Lansing, MI
Default

Ive heard the rule of thumb is double wastegate pressure is where the exhaust pressure will start forcing the door open.

a stronger spring sounds like the solution.
Old Aug 8, 2021 | 01:40 PM
  #7  
DNMakinson's Avatar
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,030
Total Cats: 861
From: Seneca, SC
Default

Hook it up without EBC, or turn EBC off and see what your waste gate pressure is. That will give a better understanding of what is happening, and what spring you actually have now.

Yes, about 2X waste gate pressure seems good for a typical sized, single port can.

If you do wire your WG closed, have Boost Cut set to 14 psi, as well as being careful. The computer is faster than your foot.

DNM
Old Aug 10, 2021 | 04:05 AM
  #8  
brainzata's Avatar
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 542
Total Cats: 17
From: Bay Area CA
Default

Are you running a vented 3 port ebc solenoid? What and how is your ebc plumbed?
Old Aug 10, 2021 | 04:25 AM
  #9  
EddieJT's Avatar
Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 50
Total Cats: 2
From: Surrey, UK
Default

I'm running a Mac 3 port solenoid. I have port 3 to the compressor housing, and port 2 to the wastegate, with port 1 venting to atmosphere.
Old Aug 10, 2021 | 02:29 PM
  #10  
x_25's Avatar
Elite Member
 
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,822
Total Cats: 144
From: NorthWest NJ
Default

Unhook and plug the vacuum line running to the WGA, see what happens.

Have you done a boost leak test?

Short answer is, yes, it can get blow open. But I would be surprised if it was that low. My friend had the greddy td04 and it would run 20+ psi with the vacuum line off and it's waste gate would open at like, 5psi normally.
Old Aug 10, 2021 | 03:05 PM
  #11  
EddieJT's Avatar
Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 50
Total Cats: 2
From: Surrey, UK
Default

No boost leaks; I got the system to hold 1bar of pressure for quite a while without any leaks.

Perhaps your friend is experiencing what a normal TD04 will do; I have (regretfully) ported my wastegate channel a lot within the exhaust housing.

Interestingly, I have just been for a drive with the EBC switched off, so just wastegate pressure; it now surges rhythmically as you floor it. In the below plot you can see the boost fluctuating. Does this suggest the wastegate flap is indeed being pushed open by exhaust gasses directly, or is this what happens when you exceed the boost pressure of the wastegate spring?



I switched the EBC back on, and the surging stopped and it pulled as per normal (but still hitting it's 12PSI ceiling despite EBC working at 100%).

Last edited by EddieJT; Aug 10, 2021 at 03:17 PM.
Old Aug 11, 2021 | 10:22 AM
  #12  
x_25's Avatar
Elite Member
 
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,822
Total Cats: 144
From: NorthWest NJ
Default

You have to see if the system is working correctly at all. Do the above with discconecting the vacuum line from the WGA and see if it blows open. If it does, you know the problem is with the waste gate/too light a spring. If it doesn't, then it's with the EBC.
Old Aug 17, 2021 | 10:49 AM
  #13  
EddieJT's Avatar
Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 50
Total Cats: 2
From: Surrey, UK
Default

So I fitted the 13PSI spring and it made no difference.

Then I removed the line to the actuator and tested it with gentle acceleration up to 3500, and then full throttle. It's now hitting the set boost limit (205kpa 15PSI) but tailing off at the top end:


Over 6000rpm plot:



Then I kept the actuator off and tied back wastegate:



You can see it finally holds the boost limit all the way to the 7000rpm, like I've been wanting. So what can we conclude from this? Is this proof the wastegate is being pushed open from the exhaust gases at high RPM?
Old Aug 17, 2021 | 12:34 PM
  #14  
EddieJT's Avatar
Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 50
Total Cats: 2
From: Surrey, UK
Default

Update, I wound about 20mm of preload into my actuator and now I'm getting a lovely 201Kpa max, with it holding pretty strong to the redline.


Where as with the regular 2mm or so of preload I was getting a max of 185Kpa and it tailed off badly:



Old Aug 17, 2021 | 03:50 PM
  #15  
DNMakinson's Avatar
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,030
Total Cats: 861
From: Seneca, SC
Default

Interested to see what happens when you connect the tube back up. Do you have any travel left?
Old Aug 17, 2021 | 11:56 PM
  #16  
Ted75zcar's Avatar
Tweaking Enginerd
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,870
Total Cats: 383
From: Boulder, CO
Default

Wait, wait, wait...
are you saying you hit a constant 200kpa or so max with the wastegate wired shut?
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
StillSlowMSM
Engine Performance
8
May 26, 2019 05:39 PM
Carrera95
DIY Turbo Discussion
2
Oct 22, 2017 09:14 AM
ScottyP3821
DIY Turbo Discussion
75
Sep 6, 2014 11:49 PM
Harv
DIY Turbo Discussion
40
May 5, 2014 10:41 PM
MartinezA92
DIY Turbo Discussion
8
Jun 6, 2011 10:54 PM




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:43 AM.