destroyed supercharged '94.
 

Back story: built this for a local, he was complaining of a shitty running, leaking, nasty engine. It's running a worn out jackson racing supercharger with a power card and no wideband. JR header, otherwise stock r package. Ended up finding a piston with a small chunk missing, which I believe is on top of Shuiend's lamp currently.

I charged him $400, he dropped it off and I rebuilt it with some used steam cleaned pistons and rods from a member on here, new rings, bearings, seals, etc. It ran for all of a couple hundred miles, if that, before I started hearing him talk of certain death noises coming from engine.

It was brought back, torn out, and disassembled this morning:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387220998

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387220998

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387220998

My back story: I've built my 1.6 twice, once after a rod bearing was crushed at 100,000 miles and 7500rpms, and again about 20,000 miles later when I decided to turbo, although I probably didn't need to replace the rings and bearings, but I did. I've also built a '96 with 10:1 pistons and a '99 head. All are working well currently, so I'm not sure what happened to this one, that's why I'm posting here. Because this customer and I need to figure out how to pay for the new pistons, bearings, head gasket, and rings.

Compression was checked to be at 160-160-0-160 immediately before disassembly, so the rest of the engine is "fine". I'm just curious as to what happened to #3. Map line to the powercard was found to be completely pinched, so I'm not sure it was getting any extra fuel for boost.

Any idea what could of grenaded the piston?

I think you hit it on the head, the power card wasn't working like it should. Looks like there was alot of detonation happening. It looks like it was rattling rod bearings causing the top layer to flake loose and gall, and the busted piston skirt. Things were really rattling inside, surprised he didn't hear it, maybe his exhaust was too loud.

Did you look at the spark plugs to see if #3 was a lot leaner than the rest? is there damage to the other pistons? I dunno, seems the Map line being pinched is going to have an effect on it either way.

If #3 is a lot leaner, or all the pistons had some det. signs (it just so happned than #3 failed first...) then its probably due to the powercard...

:brain:

3/4 plugs show light brown/white tips, obviously #3 is black and wet with oil.

Here's the twist in the story: When I brought the engine back to his place and I helped him install it, I installed the shifter. The vacuum line runs the length of the center console, and I can't remember if I installed the center console or not with the shifter, but it sounds like he's putting that blame on me. Obviously any one of us on here with a boosted engine and a wind band would have noticed the issue immediately with anything over ~12.0 afr in boost. Plus I would think a little boost would open up the map line fairly easily, although it was difficult to tell what it was even pinched on.

What say the MT brains to that?

I say you sit down and have a talk with him about why they're called "band-aids".

Which piston had a chunk missing out of it before you rebuilt the engine the first time? If he's running boost with no AFR gauge, questionable piggy-backs, and his car already ate a piston once......

Doesn't seem at all unreasonable that whatever did it the first time just did it again.

Honestly man, you hooked that guy up. $400 to rebuild a motor is a friggin steal, in fact - if you were near me i'd pay you that in a second to build mine.

besides the point, if he is too dumb to NOT be running a wideband, he deserves to go through motors. I know, because I was there at one point (band aids+ no wbo2), and as soon as i got a WB02 on the car finally, i almost shat myself with mid 13's afrs in boost.

He has no ground to stand on, it sounds like you built him a motor for a good deal AND helped him install it! Then he detonates a piston in half with his shitty ass setup and tries to blame you.

17s myself. Found out the coupler between the FP and pickup tube was split. Wide bands tell a lot. I'll see what he says, I've been thinking the same things as you have, just wanted to make sure I wasn't trying to be a weasel.

Det destroyed the first engine. The issue wasn't addressed and det destroyed the second engine. Seems pretty clear.

So the issue really is: do you want to fight this guy or help him. Is he being a dick? He must (or should) know that the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing but magically expect a different result. I know that you want to help him because that's who you are, but you want to be treated fairly too. How that resolves will ultimately be between the two of you.

It won't.

Gotcha.

I sent off a quote to the guy a few days ago, he hasn't gotten back yet. I'm deleting his EGR (including fabbing the plates), cleaned his car inside and out (I was disgusted), and offered to have him borrow a friends wide band that hasn't been installed yet to at least make sure it's running well N/A before he destroys it again. I quoted something around $350 for a second "rebuild".

Curly, you're a good friend.

Seriously, especially as it seems this guy is trying to take you for a ride...

So the owner and I have settled on an agreeable agreement. I get to pull the engine, rebuild it, reinstall it on my own labor, and he pays for all the parts. I'm ok with this since I get to do it my way, and don't have to worry about this happening again. He's also having me buy and install a wideband. And after driving him home in my 185hp 1.6, he's choosing to go the megasquirt and turbo route eventually. I told him the first step is the wideband, thank god he agreed.

So far we've bought a new head gasket, rod bearings, main bearings, front and rear main seals, break in oil, filter, and piston rings.

The block has been ball honed, and it along with the valve cover, oil pump, and oil pan have all been hot tanked. I just painted the block metallic black today, along with fixing a mangled piston squirter and installing them, along with reassembling the oil pump.

I recently built this with brand new 10:1 pistons in it:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387856185

So I'll be using the used ones we replaced for this engine:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387856185

My next concern is the head, #2 and 3 combustion chambers took a beating. I'm not too concerned, except for the slight markings on the gasket surface between #1&2 and between #3&4.

Does the collective MT brain think a head gasket will seal on this?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387856185
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387856185
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387856185
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387856185
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387856185
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387856185

Holy moly that thing looks like it was detonating more than it was combusting.

You truly are being more than generous for doing this a second time after he was too stupid to run a wideband on a band AIDz supercharger setup

Provided the mating surface is flat, I'd say it'll be fine.

That head needs to be milled. All those rough surfaces in the combustion chamber need to be smoothed out as well. There is NO WAY I would have any warranty written or implied on a motor in a boosted car. You are being MORE than fair.

I agree. no chance in hell I'd be doing any work for free on this one.

maybe the owner could have heard the popcorn being popped in his motor if he didnt have a stupid ass SCer making whiney RC-car noise that you couldn't hear over.

This is another story, but this car and owner is probably something I should not of gotten involved with. I was naive about engine rebuild costs, and after disposables such as shop towels, simple green, purple power, zip lock bags, gas, and a $130 HF work bench with vise, I probably made about $100 true profit. But a good learning experience.

That also includes driving half an hour and helping him install it, along with going over a second time to help diagnosis some rough running, which was most likely the start of this destruction.

The weight on my shoulders has been heavy though. I'll just be glad to finish it and have it running well for a while before returning it. This saga has been going on since Summer.

And about the head, I'll have it milled, not worth the potential risk for ~$50. Plus the best head guy in the Portland area is my neighbor.

On another note, if I'm reading these instructions right, he had the power card hooked up pre supercharger, not post. Pinched line or not, I don't think the power card was ever going to see boost.

I'm not looking at the engine bay, but if I remember correctly it was connected at the 180* pipe. Not sure why I didn't catch that before.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387897726

http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/p...ns/999-170.pdf

Where can I find my own personal mechanic that does work for 1/3 market value and when I screw something up, takes responsibility for it? Sounds like a good deal.

..and the nail is buried completely.
That, right there is the problem.

You're a saint Curly.

I've never seen det damage quite like that. Wow.

Curly, you are awesome and all.. but I think you are being way too nice. That is very clearly an engine destroyed by bad tuning and is of NO FAULT to the engine builder.

Either way, subbed for rebuild story and pics :)

I wasn't going to let it rot with an engine I built in it, that's no way to treat a Miata, much less a '94R. Yes, I should have/could have demanded money again, but I know he doesn't have much to give, so it's either this or it sits their being useless.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387916630

The only other option I considered was buying it off him cheap and flipping it or parting it. There's a decent ACT clutch, torsen, bilsteins, etc. But I didn't want to rob him of his pride and joy too quickly.

I'm not planning on putting a cent into it this time around. So far I haven't, in fact I've profited $4 AND he bought me two rolls of shop towels, which I have no intention of using up all on this build. So there's a win right there...

I need to get a quote from my head guy after Christmas to find out how much a milling and hot tanking costs. Normally I might not hot tank it, but if it's there, I might as well get out any shavings left from the destruction that I can. Another local Portland shop makes it sound like it'll be around $65, which would be awesome.

I just hope this guy realizes what a good friend you are. We all do. Merry Christmas.

Josh is the greatest. I've seen and driven this turd and met the owner. This is so far above and beyond what josh should be doing for this guy

Consider this a learning experience, then.

Don't work on shitty setups unless you have the customer sign some sort of waiver of liability or at least acknowledgment that you told him that he's gonna have a bad time. e.g. "Customer acknowledges I recommended against running the aftermarket supercharger setup without a properly functioning wideband air/fuel gauge." Or something that warranties only for builder error, not tuner error (and specify "e.g. detonation"). It may or may not hold up in any kind of court, but some documentation is better than nothing.

In my business, we do something in the same concept. If a client comes to me and says, "I want to buy XYZ penny stock," I spend a lot of time trying to talk them out of it with ample experiental and evidential reasons. If they insist, we process the order and it is clearly marked "unsolicited" (meaning I did not recommend it) and we have them sign a letter that says, in so many words, that I told the client this was a bad idea.


Good on you for trying to find a reasonable compromise and erring on the side of doing right by the customer. It's a process to learn where the right middle ground is.

I would of never been able to stop. With my personality, there was no way I would of rebuilt the original engine, known that it had blown up, and been able to say "too bad". So recommending him to a real shop would of been the best solution. I think he had issues with one of the better shops around though, didn't get along with the owner. Lucky for me, I get along with everyone.

The problem is that the customers who are stupid enough to make the bad decisions are the same ones who will turn around and blame you publicly for it. Regardless of what you have on paper, it becomes a he-said she-said in the court of public opinion.

Back when we were still building a lot of cars in 2010-2011, we would refuse to do stupid things, regardless of what the customer insisted on. If they insisted on a piggyback to control their new turbo kit, we insisted on not working on it. It might be your money, but it's my reputation. Most of our customers understood this and were thrilled with the results. A few of them argued with us and were cordially sent on their way. I don't lose a wink of sleep over turning down business like that.

That philosophy extends into my business today as well. I sell expertise first and parts second.

IIRC it's Enzo Ferrari that spoke the famous word: "The client is not always right."

Definitely would have charged the guy the proper price for something that got screwed up because HE didnt want to pay up and do it right.

As I embark on my own business venture this is something that really hits home to me. I've already begun to see the beginnings of strange requests and project ideas people have that they want me to tune.

Ugh, I feel for you Bro.. While it doesn't look like that damage was caused by any of your work, as the guy who rebuilt a motor that melted down you're sort of on the hook for it. Thats a shit deal, but I admire you putting your rep first.

That having been said, I should probably repeat what others above have said; one of the keys to running a successful business (even a side business) is to know when to ditch a fool. I routinely pass up on projects where the owner comes off like an idiot or wants me to do something that I'm not feeling. The objective is to have happy customers, not just activity, and while it feels counter-intuitive to growing a customer base to turn away work, in a lot of cases it's far more practical to do so. Doing quality work is enough trouble without some moron in the mix to fuck it up, a principle that extends from the people you hire or work with, people you buy from, and indeed, those you sell to.

We need a "like" button... this is exactly how businesses ought to operate.

I am pretty sure that is why we have the props button.

Wow, yeah that would explain some of the recurring issues. :rofl:

While I think Sav is dead on, I was being facetious about the "like" button... (and your sarcasm is duly noted :rofl:)

Next question. Would y'all trust this head gasket? Oil quart placed to show approximate angle it was shipped at. I'm worried to look at it cause once it's opened I can't return it.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1388259176

Considering the pressure with which it will be clamped down, that's nothing at all for mls.

I really would not worry about a slight "bend" in an mls gasket - unless it was kinked.

No kink, no problem.

Agreed with dirty vlad and the boys, i'm sure it will look fine when you pull it out of the box.

When I get annoyed with clients I can hear Al Swearengen saying "Sometimes I wish we could just hit 'em over the head, rob 'em, and throw their bodies in the creek."

Too dark?

No.
You shouldn't be doing that in broad daylight, anyway...

Next question.

I methotically repacked the used pistons and pins in the exact same way Mazda packed my friend's 10:1 pistons, so I know the pins are with the correct pistons I'll be replacing.

I also kept the same pins with the same rods that were used with the destroyed pistons.

Which should I use? Matched with pistons or matched with rods? I am a little worried that the rod set is damaged, but I can't feel the wear, only kinda see it. Like the metal debris took off the polish in a few places, but didn't remove or scratch the surface.

I'd use the ones matched to the pistons.

If he's buying parts, and you have any doubts, make him buy a rod set.

Just my opinion.

This 1000X. Make him buy rods or tell him this is absolutely IT.

I'm sending you another PM on a slightly related topic.

I'd check the pin bushings reallllly carefully (ie mic them) after that much detonation.



Then I'd toss them and have him buy another set.

The customer is always right, but not everyone has to be your customer. There's plenty of shops that never heard the 2nd part of the saying willing to take someone's money.

The pistons I'm using came out of a well maintained and un-abused '96, I kept those pistons, bottom end is now assembled. I didn't even bother asking about the rods, he wouldn't go for it.

They were all very straight, and the bushings for the connecting pins looked great, not scratches. I trust them, for whatever that's worth.

I also dropped the head off at my neighbor (owns a cylinder head shop, and does all my related work), it'll be surfaced and washed and back in my hands by 2ish tomorrow.

If I have an hour or two between celebrations, it'll be finished and ready for clutch-tranny-chassis tomorrow.

I'd have been more worried about the rod bushings being hammered oval than dinged up. A few thou there can make a lot of difference in how long it lasts without being visibly apparent.

They were measured in multiple directions to be round. Albeit only with inspected Starrett calipers, not a bore gauge, but I trust it to measure within .001", and they were all within .001" of each other.

Given that this guy:

A) Has established a demonstrable lack of Clue...

B) Has used that deficiency to your deficit already...

I wouldn't let him decide much more in terms of how you proceed, but would (like everything I do myself) insist on building it how I would build it if I was building it for myself. If he has to pony up a few bucks more, he'll be sad, but ultimately you'll be happy. He's already had his turn on the sunny side of that equation, it's your turn this time. Coming up with a few hundred more to do things right is rarely an insurmountable task when one is forced to do so.

I'm not sure you guys understand how low income this guy is.

Should he even have a supercharged miata? No. Let's ignore that for now.

He's an out of work welder after a car accident in October. Apparently there's another doctor's visit before insurance will pay out for his loss of work. He's a smart enough guy to get that done, but for now, unpaid.

I think his wife is a teacher or something. And we all know how poorly they get paid for all the work they do. Then they have 2 or 3 children, I've never seen them all at once. I think something like 2 years, 4 years, and 6 or something. Still requiring a lot of attention and money.

If I were to build this engine the way I (or you) want it to built, it would most likely end up closer to FM's or TSE's price, $1000-$2000. It's not that he'd be sad and pony up, instead I'd be sad after only receiving $100 for my engine, or we'd end up in court trying to figure out how he's going to bend over backwards to pay the rest. And after all that he'd still have a power carded supercharger setup, although after this he'll at least have a wideband.

As it is, he's scraped the bottom of the barrel for $505 to pay for gaskets, bearings, rings, and engine honing and cleaning. I haven't yet told him about the head that will most likely cost ~$60-80, and I have also not gotten paid a cent for my labor.

I'm not worried too much that I won't get paid for the head work, but I am a little worried.

Don't get me wrong, every nut and bolt I tighten is a giant load off my back, and I do enjoy wrenching. Do I wish I would get paid? Yes. Do I think he can? No. I just want to get it done and over with.

Moving on though, $35 later and a brisk walk to my neighbor.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1388618753

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1388618753

Damage is only 99% gone. Nothing between the chambers, just two spots like this.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1388618753

No idea how much was taken off, although the surface started to take material off near the studs.

Maybe the guy needs to consider ripping off the shitcharger if hes on such low funds.. reliability > 20 extra hp.

He says he wouldn't own the car if it weren't for the supercharger? I drove him home in my 185hp car, he was floored. I've driven his car, felt less than when I dynoed at 155hp.

I think stock the '94 1.8 has 125hp? Which means his boost in power is more likely to be 15hp, not 20.

Here's a little progress.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1388628355

Another hour or two and it'll be buttoned up and ready for the clutch and transmission.

Saying he wouldn't own the car if it weren't for the supercharger is something that someone says who isn't conning someone else out of hours of labor. Someone who says that while taking advantage of someone else is, shall we say, a douchebag.

You feel sorry for him. He DOESN'T feel sorry for you.

The main reason why this guy is taking such advantages is because the work is being done for free. Such a shame theres people like that.

Ok, that ought to be good... you'd made it sound to me as though you'd just visually inspected them.