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dyno tuned 3071
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Well folks, drove up to Ken Hill's place up in PA to get the link dyno tuned. I've just recently finished the FM2 upgrade to a 3071R and 750's with WI. Ken is a super nice guy and really knows the Link ecu well. We did probably 25 pulls and below is the best we could get. This is at 16psi. Where is the damn power?????
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Post you ign map.
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post your spark table.
Any exhaust leaks before or after the turbo? (I had a leak at turbo outlet and couldn't make more than 8psi) If the red-line on the AFR chart is 14.7, you're in deep shit. |
and on a dynojet to make matters worse
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It looks like the red line on AFRs is 13???
Closer, but should still be about a full point richer. EDIT: nm...the WI part didn't click. |
I'd like to see a boost chart as well, for how long is it holding 16 psi, and when?
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Fuel looks like 12:1, hard to tell, but might be a touch lean.
Keys to success: Remove Link Add MegaSquirt Tune ???? Profit Link = fail. I bet there's at least 30 whp on the table. New ignition will help too. Ima make a thread about that. |
post up your timming chart dude you are probably way conservative how much water are you spraying?
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Add fuel, get detcans out, add timing, make over 300rwhp or die.
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Originally Posted by Spookyfish
(Post 460138)
Add fuel, get detcans out, add timing, make over 300rwhp or die.
what's a detcan? |
Originally Posted by thymer
(Post 460156)
what's a detcan? It's a mechanical way to amplify engine noises...especially knock...using a flattened brass tube bolted to the head, attached to plastic tubing connected to earmuffs. You can distinctly hear detonation onset over regular valve noise about like hail on a hot tin roof. |
detonation can used to hear what your motor is doing like a stetascope but stays on the car and can be heard while driving. Put the bigger nozzle in what size are you nozzles anyway? Give me a size and i will help you.
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epic fail!
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3 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by dustinb
(Post 460048)
I'd like to see a boost chart as well, for how long is it holding 16 psi, and when?
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So you're hitting target boost a little after 4Krpm?
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Something is def. wrong with your setup. Back to the drawing board.
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Originally Posted by gospeed81
(Post 460160)
Something you learn about on google like the rest of us....
It's a mechanical way to amplify engine noises...especially knock...using a flattened brass tube bolted to the head, attached to plastic tubing connected to earmuffs. You can distinctly hear detonation onset over regular valve noise about like hail on a hot tin roof. |
wi jet is a 6.2 GPH
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I don't see where you describe your exhaust.
What kind of dynojet is this? I am taking by context that it does not have a brake. I thought Ken Hill was a decent tuner. Your account of events, taking pulls and watching the knock sensor, does not instill confidence. Link is old. What about your mani and dp, current gen stuff or old? And that is quite a bit of timing. |
Is there a way to produce a table of total advance vs. RPM vs. MAP from the Link?
Pull your valve cover and front covers and make sure your timing isn't fucked up. You should not be detonating with a 3071 and water. .64 A/R? edit: you're idling at 39kpa? Isn't that really, really shitty? |
Originally Posted by gospeed81
(Post 460173)
So you're hitting target boost a little after 4Krpm?
I'm at a loss, I am still running a stock 94 head but I figured the big turbo would be enough to blow it through anyway, maybe not 400hp but I was really hoping for 350. |
He did Sav. The bottom chart in post # 14. You have to divide the numbers by 4 (the link works in .25 increments).
100kPa @ 4500 rpm = 116 points 116 points / 4 points per degree = 29 degrees So 29 degrees advance at 100kPa & 4500 rpm |
6.25 gph :eek: that is alot of water? that is more than i spray in a standalone setting. Ok after using bens post of knowledge to descipher the link data your timming is pretty decent.
So you could be blowing out spark, loosing boost from a weak wastgate. The way your torque falls off leads me to believe it is not staying fully closed. Your knock sensor might be a tad sensitive as well. +1 to get a detonation monitoring system that depends on your own ears, with this you can verify if what is causing a retard event is knock or maybe a alternator getting loose, lifter tap etc. |
Thanks, Ben. I've never played with Link software.
18 degrees at 180kpa, 12 degrees at 220kpa, on a 3071R with water? Something is fucked in your timing. Check your belt and make sure you didn't botch the base timing or the marks. |
omg save you are right his midrange could use a bump. All these other ecus have such weird interfaces.
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Originally Posted by Ben
(Post 460188)
I don't see where you describe your exhaust.
What kind of dynojet is this? I am taking by context that it does not have a brake. I thought Ken Hill was a decent tuner. Your account of events, taking pulls and watching the knock sensor, does not instill confidence. Link is old. What about your mani and dp, current gen stuff or old? And that is quite a bit of timing. i emailed ken a long time ago to tune mine but he wouldn't touch megasquirt:jerkit: |
Originally Posted by Mach929
(Post 460214)
i emailed ken a long time ago to tune mine but he wouldn't touch megasquirt:jerkit:
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Originally Posted by Ben
(Post 460188)
I don't see where you describe your exhaust.
What kind of dynojet is this? I am taking by context that it does not have a brake. I thought Ken Hill was a decent tuner. Your account of events, taking pulls and watching the knock sensor, does not instill confidence. Link is old. What about your mani and dp, current gen stuff or old? And that is quite a bit of timing. Not sure the type of Dynojet, in-ground, expensive looking, did have a brake. Manifold is the FM cast unit, DP is the current gen FM cast unit as well. I don't know that Ken is the issue, something just doesn't seem right. I tripple checked the timing belt and confirmed TDC between number 1 and the crank pulley. Like I say, I'm at a loss. |
You confirm 19 teeth between the cam marks? I had problems with low timing and crappy spool, turned out my intake cam was retarded 2 teeth.
Although honestly, with that timing map, '94 head, 2.5" exhaust, and a .64 A/R 3071R, I don't know that you're that far off. You need the .86, '99 head, 3" exhaust and a good timing map and I bet you'd see a 50whp bump. |
When I was bugging Corkey Bell about exhaust. He told me round about, 2 1/2 is good for 250hp , 3" good for over 300HP.
That may not matter so much with no cat though. I would give him or FM a shout out tommorrow. |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 460248)
You confirm 19 teeth between the cam marks? I had problems with low timing and crappy spool, turned out my intake cam was retarded 2 teeth.
Although honestly, with that timing map, '94 head, 2.5" exhaust, and a .64 A/R 3071R, I don't know that you're that far off. You need the .86, '99 head, 3" exhaust and a good timing map and I bet you'd see a 50whp bump. FM is getting *average* 35whp gain going from Link to Hydra. Skip Cannon's car picked up 50 whp. I'd bet yours would also pick up more than average. |
Is there something inherently bad about the link ecu? Thats quite a power change just from one stand alone to another.
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Originally Posted by vw_nut
(Post 460346)
Is there something inherently bad about the link ecu? Thats quite a power change just from one stand alone to another.
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Originally Posted by vw_nut
(Post 460346)
Is there something inherently bad about the link ecu? Thats quite a power change just from one stand alone to another.
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Originally Posted by Toddcod
(Post 460274)
When I was bugging Corkey Bell about exhaust. He told me round about, 2 1/2 is good for 250hp , 3" good for over 300HP.
So what do Hydra/MS do that Link doesn't? The same tune should should produce the same numbers right? If they're both tuned to 11.5AFR with the same spark table, hp should be identical. Resolution helps driveability/part throttle fine tuning, not necessarily peak numbers. I could see 50hp from a SAFC fuel tune only to a standalone fuel/timing tune, but 50hp from equally tuned standalones? seriously? |
Stil, 250rwhp on a 3071 with 2.5" is pathetic. Either you're flooding your cylinders with water instead of fuel, or something else is fucked up.
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Originally Posted by Spookyfish
(Post 460459)
Stil, 250rwhp on a 3071 with 2.5" is pathetic. Either you're flooding your cylinders with water instead of fuel, or something else is fucked up.
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What's sad is the dyno looks fantastic for a turbo that size on a 1.8L up until 4.5K
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Originally Posted by magnamx-5
(Post 460197)
6.25 gph :eek: that is alot of water? that is more than i spray in a standalone setting.
Originally Posted by thymer
(Post 460473)
The one thing that stands out to me is the very low fuel values. Those injectors were working at like 45%!
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 460480)
What's sad is the dyno looks fantastic for a turbo that size on a 1.8L up until 4.5K
I'm starting to see a trend here.
Originally Posted by thymer
(Post 460473)
Word. Here's a question for the group, should it have been tuned completely without meth/water first and then add the juice and tune appropriately?
That's the way I would have done it :ugh2: but I'm a WI noob so... |
did your wideband agree with the dynos?
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Originally Posted by Mach929
(Post 460485)
did your wideband agree with the dynos?
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Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 460480)
What's sad is the dyno looks fantastic for a turbo that size on a 1.8L up until 4.5K
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Originally Posted by thymer
(Post 460488)
Which is about the time is starts spraying. Maybe I should have had him tune without the juice first
I don't see injector duty cycle on your graph. What is your master fuel set to? |
I mean your ignition timing isn't very aggressive and you're spraying... probably a combination of the two are working against you.
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Originally Posted by ARTech
(Post 460456)
So what do Hydra/MS do that Link doesn't? The same tune should should produce the same numbers right? If they're both tuned to 11.5AFR with the same spark table, hp should be identical. Resolution helps driveability/part throttle fine tuning, not necessarily peak numbers. I could see 50hp from a SAFC fuel tune only to a standalone fuel/timing tune, but 50hp from equally tuned standalones? seriously?
These quotes are taken in context
Originally Posted by Jeremy
In addition to the resolution I think it has a lot to do with precision. For example, a slower processor may not be as precise as a faster processor (especially wth limited resolution), meaning that when it says it fires and when it really fires may not be exact- in terms of hysteresis between spark events as the motor turns. (Just a guess.) That means your spark map in your ECU would have to be set to the lowest common denominator, which may be restrictive to potential.
Originally Posted by Jeremy
If spark is spark and fuel is fuel, why aren't we all still running carburetors? If computers are all the same, how come I don't still use my Commodore 64? I'm not a computer or software engineer so I can't really "bench race" all the theoretical answers- all I can do is work with & tune the systems to the best they can be and report on the results..
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@Dyno of Skip Cannon's GT2560r BP4W powered Catherham
WOW... Link = EPIC FAIL. |
5 rpm points? Ok, you win. On the carb analogy, I bet that car would make more power on carb than the link ;) Processor speed isn't a big issue for power runs since there are only two parametes load and rpm. Didn't consider spark hysteresis. Never knew it was a problem.
Thymer, you're using water only, no meth? |
Originally Posted by ARTech
(Post 460515)
5 rpm points? Ok, you win. On the carb analogy, I bet that car would make more power on carb than the link ;) Processor speed isn't a big issue for power runs since there are only two parametes load and rpm. Didn't consider spark hysteresis. Never knew it was a problem.
Thymer, you're using water only, no meth? I do have a couple old VW bug carbs laying around... :) |
Originally Posted by ARTech
(Post 460515)
5 rpm points? Ok, you win. On the carb analogy, I bet that car would make more power on carb than the link ;) Processor speed isn't a big issue for power runs since there are only two parametes load and rpm. Didn't consider spark hysteresis. Never knew it was a problem.
Thymer, you're using water only, no meth? I don't see how a power pull would be any less difficult than cruising. Really, it seems like it would be more difficult because it's required to be most precise. It's never just two parameters. It's got at least 5 MAP, RPM, CLT, AIT, Knock and is probably running all sorts of loops IE If CLT < X Then Fuel * 110% Else Fuel * 100% It's also looking for knock, looking for air temp (pulls power if air temp exceeds a set threshold), is running closed loop EBC, looking for neutral and clutch switches, running the keypad. And it's gotta squirt and spark the car. Frankly it's doing all kinds of stuff, and when it was new people were claiming the processor was underpowered. |
Needz moar better ecuz.
I'm pretty sure I'm making close to 230whp, maybe more on my t3 60trim at 13psi. |
I tell you what... I'll sell you my hydra with my awesome map that got me that same power at half the boost on a smaller turbo and see what it does for you.
Seriously, I'd love to see your EGTs. I bet they are way up in melty valve territory. I dont think it's just the Link though. There's more going on here. |
Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 460540)
I tell you what... I'll sell you my hydra with my awesome map that got me that same power at half the boost on a smaller turbo and see what it does for you.
Seriously, I'd love to see your EGTs. I bet they are way up in melty valve territory. I dont think it's just the Link though. There's more going on here. I agree, something else is going on here. My first thought was the timing belt but it's dead nuts on, I triple checked. The other thing I thought was weird was how high the torque was. |
Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 460540)
I tell you what... I'll sell you my hydra with my awesome map that got me that same power at half the boost on a smaller turbo and see what it does for you.
Seriously, I'd love to see your EGTs. I bet they are way up in melty valve territory. I dont think it's just the Link though. There's more going on here. |
6.2GPH really is a lot. Like you said, you should tune without injection first since it just adds complexity. At 6.2GPH (390cc) it's likely that the mixture wants to run richer since Meth burns at 6:1 stoich compared to gasolines 14.7:1. If my math is right the mixture (4 injectors 750cc@45% plus one 390cc@50% spraying methane) would be stoich at 13.65AFR and a comparable safe 12:1AFR for boost on gasoline would be 11.13AFR on the gas/meth mixture. Running lean is also likely the reason you cant advance timing without introducing knock.
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Me thinks too much water is killing combustion. You are probably at like a 50% water to fuel ratio. Way over the recommended 25% max.
Also I have another theory that I thought about just now. Link = failboat Redskins = failboat Link = Redskins Your motor is being run by the Redskin! No wonder is sucks! |
Originally Posted by neogenesis2004
(Post 460547)
Also I have another theory that I thought about just now.
Link = failboat Redskins = failboat Link = Redskins Your motor is being run by the Redskin! No wonder is sucks! Lions = fail Lions > redskins Therefor Redskins<fail And Link<fail |
Originally Posted by neogenesis2004
(Post 460547)
Me thinks too much water is killing combustion. You are probably at like a 50% water to fuel ratio. Way over the recommended 25% max.
Also I have another theory that I thought about just now. Link = failboat Redskins = failboat Link = Redskins Your motor is being run by the Redskin! No wonder is sucks! |
Originally Posted by Ben
(Post 460550)
This one will twist your fucking mind
Lions = fail Lions > redskins Therefor Redskins<fail And Link<fail |
Originally Posted by Ben
(Post 460532)
5 MAP points.
I don't see how a power pull would be any less difficult than cruising. Really, it seems like it would be more difficult because it's required to be most precise. It's never just two parameters. It's got at least 5 MAP, RPM, CLT, AIT, Knock and is probably running all sorts of loops IE If CLT < X Then Fuel * 110% Else Fuel * 100% It's also looking for knock, looking for air temp (pulls power if air temp exceeds a set threshold), is running closed loop EBC, looking for neutral and clutch switches, running the keypad. And it's gotta squirt and spark the car. Frankly it's doing all kinds of stuff, and when it was new people were claiming the processor was underpowered. Closed loop is a preset value whereas open loop is a constant battle to find the best value. You have accel/decel afr, throtte deltas, load deltas, pumps, etc. Either way, it's settled, link sucks. |
Originally Posted by thymer
(Post 460544)
Can that hydra be upgraded to the newest version?
I know it can control water injection though. :) |
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