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Old 08-17-2016, 04:10 PM   #1
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Default Everything I research tells me my timing belt is off, except its not (with pictures)

hey guys so i just finished swapping my 1.8 into my 93 chassis i had my engine rebuilt with forged rods and had the shop assemble the engine (they put the timing belt on)
got the motor in and the only way the car will start and run is if i retard the timing by about 20 degrees on the cam sensor (to the point the cam sensor cant be bolted on because its moved too far).
I figured the shop made a mistake and installed the timing belt one tooth off. so i removed the valve cover, found tdc (dipstick in cyl 1) and checked the marks; everything lines up. there are 19 teeth between the i and e marks on the cams, the mark on the crank lines up with the one on the oil pump and the mark on the crank pulley lines up with the timing belt cover marks.
the car runs fine minus a higher than average idle (1100rpm) no rough idle, no misfires, average power for a stock 1.8 (butt dyno). if it wasn't for the fact that the cam sensor is so far retarded that it cant be bolted down i honestly wouldn't think there was any issue whatsoever with it. at this point im stumped and hoping i missed something dumb and obvious do you guys have any suggestions?

i used the fm swap kit, all the electronics are from the 1.6 engine including the cam sensor.
the only reason for the swap was to prep for boost. everything ran great before the swap.

all pictures are at tdc
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Everything I research tells me my timing belt is off, except its not (with pictures)-20160813_065854.jpg   Everything I research tells me my timing belt is off, except its not (with pictures)-20160813_065908.jpg  
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:36 PM   #2
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Damper may have slipped. Shop shouldn't have used it to determine TDC, but they may have.
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:44 PM   #3
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He said he found TDC in the #1 cyl.

What ECU?
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:46 PM   #4
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Next guess would be the cam gears not being straight on the cam.
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:48 PM   #5
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Hmmmm. I see the CAS is on the exhaust side. Will the ECU need any different configuration for that. My ecu knowledge is limited to VVT and 1.6 though.
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Old 08-17-2016, 05:08 PM   #6
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Verify cam position. The forward-most lobes on the intake cam should be pointing directly at 9 0'clock and the same lobes on the exhaust cam should point to 3 O' clock. If the don't and you're confident in the rest of the timing, take the cam gear off and check to see that the pin holding it in the right place hasn't been sheered/fallen out etc.

Also check to make sure you CAS is bolted in right side up. The plug should be positioned upwards. There are two holes on the valve cover that line up for the CAS positionin bolt, only one is correct.

Both of these situations happened to me.
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Old 08-17-2016, 11:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Next guess would be the cam gears not being straight on the cam.
Intake cam pulley looks like it's been removed. The flats on the bolt head are pretty mangled.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:44 AM   #8
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ok i did some stuff; i set the timing last night and went out for about a 20 mile drive. when i came home the timing was still at what i had set it before leaving which makes me think the crank pulley might be ok, although it was bead blasted by the shop when they had it which might have caused damage.
Elfering thanks for the tip my cam sensor was definitely upside down, i got really excited and flipped it over and now the car still wont run unless i retard the timing way back to where it still cant be bolted on. so now my cam sensor is right side up but the problem persists.

I think the next step might be to remove the cams when i looked at it last the first cam lobes were both pointing out intake was pointed to 9 o'clock and the exhaust was at 3... the saga continues (btw im the original poster i didnt realize i was logged into my old account from work) thanks to everyone for helping me out!
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:03 AM   #9
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Before you start removing a ton of stuff. We need you to take some pictures for us. First we need to see the cam gears in the correct location, like the picture in your first post, but we need to also see the cams. Then I want a picture of the pulley the timing belt goes on at TDC. Not the timing marks on the wheel with the timing label on the plastic cover. Remove all those as you need to be setting timing based on the actual cog and mark on the block.
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:27 AM   #10
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i will take those pictures when i get home from work today, when i indexed the timing mark on the crank pulley i was able to look down to the actual cog the timing belt goes on and the mark did line up with the mark on the oil pump (oil pump is boundary engineering).
i was able to look down the covers by removing just the top cover so all i did see was the mark on the cog and the oil pump not the actual key-way. i will remove all 3 and recheck tonight.
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Old 08-18-2016, 12:28 PM   #11
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The ecu is the stock unit from the 93.
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Old 08-18-2016, 01:59 PM   #12
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i should mention the timing is right when i check it with a timing light; 10 degrees (with the jumper installed grnd-ten on the diagnostic port). it just shouldn't be right based on the cam sensor position on the head (if i try to bring the cam sensor to the point it can be bolted on the timing advances so far the car shuts off but no audible pinging is heard) . the head was bought rebuilt from Odessa cylinder heads in Florida, but the shop that built the engine checked it and said everything seemed fine.
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Old 08-18-2016, 02:04 PM   #13
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Front lobes on cams should be pointing outwards, slightly above horizontal, which is why shuiend wants to see pics of your cams at "TDC".
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Old 08-18-2016, 05:13 PM   #14
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This sounds like either the dampener on the crank has slipped or the CAS bolt is in the wrong bolt hole. The bolt should be on the inboard side of the CAS. There are two bolt holes, one on the outside, near the header and one on the inside near the center of the back of the head. The correct location is the center, or inboard location. Going by your picture, it looks like it is the bolt hole on the CAS. The CAS seen in the very back of your picture, should have the connector pointing straight up.

Look at the CAS in this picture, the connector is pointing straight up:


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Old 08-18-2016, 07:21 PM   #15
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thanks for the pic mx5racer my cam sensor was upside down i've since flipped it over and found the correct hole to no avail. Am i wrong or do i count 18 teeth between those two cam marks on your picture?

All pictures are at tdc. i can take more if needed the car is staying apart till this weekend.
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Everything I research tells me my timing belt is off, except its not (with pictures)-20160818_184023.jpg   Everything I research tells me my timing belt is off, except its not (with pictures)-20160818_184116.jpg   Everything I research tells me my timing belt is off, except its not (with pictures)-20160818_184057.jpg  
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Old 08-19-2016, 07:51 AM   #16
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Going by your pictures, everything is lined up correctly.

The picture I posted is not mine, just one that showed the CAS clearly.
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Old 08-19-2016, 08:25 AM   #17
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Intake cam might be one tooth off. I can't really tell, but I think the front 2 intake lobes look a bit low.
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Old 08-19-2016, 01:24 PM   #18
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Post a picture like this.
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Old 08-19-2016, 01:45 PM   #19
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Old 08-19-2016, 02:03 PM   #20
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After seeing that picture, I would pull the belt off, take off the bolts holding the cam gears on and verify that the pins holding the gears in place are in good shape. This will ensure that your cams are in the right position when the gears are lined up correctly (as they appear to be). Past that I would look into the slipped damper.

I ran into the exact same scenario where I could get the car to start with the CAS upside down, realized it was wrong, corrected it and then couldnt start it with it in a position where I could thread the locking bolt in place. My ultimate problem was that the cam gear had sheared the set pin on the exhaust came. Your cam lobes look to be in the correct position but mine weren't terribly off either.

Take the gears off and see what you find.
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