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Old 06-09-2015, 06:58 PM   #41
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I wouldn't suggest taking it back to the same tuner. Take it to someone who is a Miata specialist.

I made the mistake of having my car tuned by someone who was not a Miata specialist, nor did he know the ECU. Needless to say, I largely wasted a considerable amount of money. Not his fault directly, and I still recommend the tuner to others in some circumstances.

Point is: If you're not going to tune it yourself, find someone who knows your platform very well.
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Old 06-10-2015, 10:58 AM   #42
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A little OT: What happened to the Y-Axis scaling on your AFR1 table?
Looks like it's bodged together from like 5 different tables.
Steps are: 5, 10, 10, 15, 10, 10, 5, 10 ,45, 25, 65
Fix that!
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Old 06-13-2015, 07:54 PM   #43
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I wouldn't suggest taking it back to the same tuner. Take it to someone who is a Miata specialist.

I made the mistake of having my car tuned by someone who was not a Miata specialist, nor did he know the ECU. Needless to say, I largely wasted a considerable amount of money. Not his fault directly, and I still recommend the tuner to others in some circumstances.

Point is: If you're not going to tune it yourself, find someone who knows your platform very well.
No such thing out here. Since I can't find a specialist, I feel that its my job to learn whatever I can about the tune then relay the information to the tuner. I'm having it re-dynoed again at WOT with a better tank of gas tomorrow and knock headphones. Hopefully we can get around 210WTQ, I'd be a very happy camper if we hit that mark.
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Old 06-15-2015, 03:16 AM   #44
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So I ended my dyno tune session today and these are my results:


216.5WHP// 194WTQ. Increasing the timing from the current levels definitely helped with pushing the power up, but the knocking just got harder and harder.

Looking at the boost in the above graph, what could be the cause of the flatlining of the boost at ~10 before it moves to 11psi? Could this be a Wastegate creep issue? Or the MBC just not doing the best it can do?

Also, I was having a grumpy engine problem prior to the dyno tuning today. The engine would rumble like a misfire, but upon driving then idling again, the engine would idle perfectly fine. I figured this must have been a heat soak issue because my radiator hose was in contact with my charge pipe, so I ended up re-doing my plumbling and now have them apart. My intake temperatures dropped by half, but the misfires kept happening. I didn't suspect a spark plug issue because I had just purchased the FAB9 COP kit with Denso IK22s. Anyways, after the dyno tune today, I decided to do a compression test because I thought my engine was the cause of the early knock/ "low" power. Results came out 150/140/150/150 (right before my turbo install, about 2 months ago, I was 160/150/160/160- don't know if that means anything). But when I pulled out the spark in cylinder 2, this is what I found:



Notice on your right, the point where the spark jumps to is covered by a plastic sheath. The left spark plug is one pulled out of cylinder 4 that should be working fine. The right one had a loose sheath, or whatever that thing was, which resulted in the misfires at idle. Again, this problem was really weird because upon driving the car/in boost, I didn't notice any difference in terms of power. Not sure I understand how a faulty spark plug would only affect the idle. Anyways, if you're running Denso IK22's, watch out for this problem, not sure if it was a defect or a re-occuring problem.

Moving on. After the compression test and happy with the fact that my engine isn't blown "yet", I took it out for a WOT run. Here's my log:



Looking at the two big spikes on graph 2, I could feel one instance of knock while driving. The rest of the map looks pretty nice to me. Would you guys suggest I pull timing out of the marked areas on my spark table to remove the knocking issue? Or should I WOT again and see if it replicates?

Also, during my tuning session, I was told that most high performance cars run catch cans. The tuner demonstrated what happens to the oil when you go from full boost to closed throttle -- I had oil all over the engine bay as it shot right out of the intake side. We then ran the car a few times without the manifold being connected to the engine before doing a WOT run. These runs allowed the manifold to rid itself of some oil and the subsequent WOT run had minimal knock. I've read over the catchcan threads and can't tell what the majority really thinks about them, how many of you guys are running catch cans?
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:43 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chowcow View Post
...
Looking at the boost in the above graph, what could be the cause of the flatlining of the boost at ~10 before it moves to 11psi? Could this be a Wastegate creep issue? Or the MBC just not doing the best it can do?

Also, I was having a grumpy engine problem prior to the dyno tuning today. The engine would rumble like a misfire, but upon driving then idling again, the engine would idle perfectly fine. I figured this must have been a heat soak issue because my radiator hose was in contact with my charge pipe, so I ended up re-doing my plumbling and now have them apart. My intake temperatures dropped by half, but the misfires kept happening. I didn't suspect a spark plug issue because I had just purchased the FAB9 COP kit with Denso IK22s. Anyways, after the dyno tune today, I decided to do a compression test because I thought my engine was the cause of the early knock/ "low" power. Results came out 150/140/150/150 (right before my turbo install, about 2 months ago, I was 160/150/160/160- don't know if that means anything). But when I pulled out the spark in cylinder 2, this is what I found:



Notice on your right, the point where the spark jumps to is covered by a plastic sheath. The left spark plug is one pulled out of cylinder 4 that should be working fine. The right one had a loose sheath, or whatever that thing was, which resulted in the misfires at idle. Again, this problem was really weird because upon driving the car/in boost, I didn't notice any difference in terms of power. Not sure I understand how a faulty spark plug would only affect the idle. Anyways, if you're running Denso IK22's, watch out for this problem, not sure if it was a defect or a re-occuring problem.

Moving on. After the compression test and happy with the fact that my engine isn't blown "yet", I took it out for a WOT run. Here's my log:



Looking at the two big spikes on graph 2, I could feel one instance of knock while driving. The rest of the map looks pretty nice to me. Would you guys suggest I pull timing out of the marked areas on my spark table to remove the knocking issue? Or should I WOT again and see if it replicates?

Also, during my tuning session, I was told that most high performance cars run catch cans. The tuner demonstrated what happens to the oil when you go from full boost to closed throttle -- I had oil all over the engine bay as it shot right out of the intake side. We then ran the car a few times without the manifold being connected to the engine before doing a WOT run. These runs allowed the manifold to rid itself of some oil and the subsequent WOT run had minimal knock. I've read over the catchcan threads and can't tell what the majority really thinks about them, how many of you guys are running catch cans?
If the motor is knocking, don't worry about pulling timing, just let it knock. Give it hell.


Yeah....

Regarding catchan, I would block off the PCV so it can't spray oil into the engine. As long as it's hooked up, it's going to pump oil into you intake manifold. Installing a catch can on the PCV can help with this, but some wills till get past the catch can, and most catch cans suck and aren't going to catch most of it anyways.

On my car I just blocked off the PCV and ran the breather to the intake (upstream of my SC) with no catch can as there is no oil coming out of that hole.

Add fuel as already discussed.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:47 AM   #46
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Also holy ****, in your log your RPMs DROP after the knock spike. That's reallllllyyyyyyy bad.

RPMs should be smooth like this:

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Old 06-15-2015, 10:13 AM   #47
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Now you appear to have legitimate knock or misfire. At least based on that huge spike in the last log.
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Old 06-15-2015, 11:07 AM   #48
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His AFRs were flat when it happened, my guess is it's not a misfire. Unless he has the filtering cranked up on the AFR sensor.
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Old 06-15-2015, 11:13 AM   #49
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I've never seen knock hard enough that it causees the car to stumble and show up on hte log like that. I've had tons and tons of misfires do that tho. But I'm really careful so who knows

OP: do a test, do two identical logs one with current timing map and another with 3* less in boost accross the board.

and post up relevant values and not pointless stuff like ego correction and afr target
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Old 06-15-2015, 11:16 AM   #50
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I datalogged when I broke my last piston, and the RPMs dropped before and when it happened. It detonated too. That's what I get for not knowing what I was doing....

For me in the past, when I had a misfire ( I used to have a **** EDIS ignition system) the giveaway was always the AFRs jumping around.

EDIT: Just looked at the log, it only dropped RPM after it broke a piston, not before. Had a misfire before that when it dropped I was thinking of. Still RPMs went DOWN while running 19 PSI.
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Old 06-15-2015, 08:03 PM   #51
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I've never seen knock hard enough that it causees the car to stumble and show up on hte log like that. I've had tons and tons of misfires do that tho. But I'm really careful so who knows

OP: do a test, do two identical logs one with current timing map and another with 3* less in boost accross the board.

and post up relevant values and not pointless stuff like ego correction and afr target
Will do tonight.

I'm not too sure what you mean by RPM drop. I see that during the second spike, my RPMS went a bit wonky, but not enough to cause concern (the waves are tiny). The end of the RPM reading (where it gets a bit wavy again) is when I released the throttle. I'm not sure if you guys are misinterpreting it or if I am.

I'll pull a degree or two and re-run.

As for what patsmx5 said.. Aren't I always at risk if I tune with WOT pulls? Any way I can mitigate the chances of blowing the engine?
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Old 06-15-2015, 08:13 PM   #52
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Will do tonight.

I'm not too sure what you mean by RPM drop. I see that during the second spike, my RPMS went a bit wonky, but not enough to cause concern (the waves are tiny). The end of the RPM reading (where it gets a bit wavy again) is when I released the throttle. I'm not sure if you guys are misinterpreting it or if I am.

I'll pull a degree or two and re-run.

As for what patsmx5 said.. Aren't I always at risk if I tune with WOT pulls? Any way I can mitigate the chances of blowing the engine?
RPMs should not bounce around At all. Any fluctuation is a cause for concern. They should just smoothly rise, like in my log I posted. The RPMs going DOWN is a sure sign that something is wrong. Just think about it, why would RPMs go DOWN while WOT in boost? You got 4 pistons all trying to make the motor spin faster. You may very well have a misfire given that ignition system, but on all my setups a misfire shows up on the AFR trace. Thus why I said maybe it's detonation.

Like Vlad said, go pull some timing and do back to back pulls, see if it clears up. I'd say pull 3 to 5 degrees, make a big enough change that it should be very obvious in the before/after logs.

I said you're at risk cause something is wrong, and you haven't figured out what it is yet. And you are not taking every precaution possible to make sure it's not knocking. In fact you posted you could HEAR it.

You don't tune by keeping the motor detonating and then keep trying to find the sweet spot that makes it stop. You start with a safe tune, and using some sort of knock-feedback (knock sensor, det cans, reading plugs) you begin tuning to improve power.
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Old 06-15-2015, 08:28 PM   #53
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RPMs should not bounce around At all. Any fluctuation is a cause for concern. They should just smoothly rise, like in my log I posted. The RPMs going DOWN is a sure sign that something is wrong. Just think about it, why would RPMs go DOWN while WOT in boost? You got 4 pistons all trying to make the motor spin faster. You may very well have a misfire given that ignition system, but on all my setups a misfire shows up on the AFR trace. Thus why I said maybe it's detonation.

Like Vlad said, go pull some timing and do back to back pulls, see if it clears up. I'd say pull 3 to 5 degrees, make a big enough change that it should be very obvious in the before/after logs.

I said you're at risk cause something is wrong, and you haven't figured out what it is yet. And you are not taking every precaution possible to make sure it's not knocking. In fact you posted you could HEAR it.

You don't tune by keeping the motor detonating and then keep trying to find the sweet spot that makes it stop. You start with a safe tune, and using some sort of knock-feedback (knock sensor, det cans, reading plugs) you begin tuning to improve power.


Dropped my timing by ~ 3 across the board on the 157 KPA range. I'll go do tests on it tonight or tomorrow. *Edit* I pulled the same timing out of the row above 157 KPA now as well*
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Old 06-15-2015, 08:55 PM   #54
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RPMs should not bounce around At all. Any fluctuation is a cause for concern. They should just smoothly rise, like in my log I posted. The RPMs going DOWN is a sure sign that something is wrong. Just think about it, why would RPMs go DOWN while WOT in boost?
One reason you'll see RPMs drop during a street run is when the wheels lose traction momentarily. Even in 4th with only 200-ish ft-lbs you can see this if the road is bumpy or damp.

If you're taking timing out to try to measure effect on knock, you want to do it in big chunks of the table, because the car isn't going to be running right down a row so it'll be interpolating. I would do something like all boosted rows or all columns above 2000 RPM or something like that.

--Ian
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:07 PM   #55
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Yeah not just one row. Just highlight the whole map from 120kpa-240kpa and drop
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Old 06-16-2015, 12:28 PM   #56
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I'll post up my runs later tonight, but I dropped 4 rows by 3 degrees, then progressively up to -1 degree from my base timing. The only problem now is that I don't feel the knock (the knock sensors may or may not be picking up knock, the patterns are ambiguous again) so I've decided to put together knock headphones before I continue street tuning.

I realized the difference between a safe 180-190 WTQ and 200-210 isn't very noticeable, so I'd be happy to run the former at a safer limit.
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Old 06-16-2015, 12:36 PM   #57
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One reason you'll see RPMs drop during a street run is when the wheels lose traction momentarily. Even in 4th with only 200-ish ft-lbs you can see this if the road is bumpy or damp.

If you're taking timing out to try to measure effect on knock, you want to do it in big chunks of the table, because the car isn't going to be running right down a row so it'll be interpolating. I would do something like all boosted rows or all columns above 2000 RPM or something like that.

--Ian
On my car, seeing wheelspin is very easy to pinpoint in a datalog. Usually RPM shoot way up really fast, then TPS drops a bunch. But even in higher gears, if the wheels spin, RPM would climb faster, not climb slower. They would only slow down when the wheels regain traction. So RPMs would have to go up first.

His logs don't show this, they just drop. Again, something is wrong, that should not happen, and he needs to figure out what's causing it.

OP, you are not going to feel knock.
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