Gauging interest in Ti valves?
 

So awhile ago I ran this thread over on cr and learned that most guys over there are not super big spenders in the engine department. Now I ask you guys, is there any interest in buying a set of Titanium Valves with BeCu Valve Seats.

Now, this is just looking to see if anyone would be on board. Okay, so for the long part, I asked a guy if he could make me some valves. He said he could but I would have to buy at least 40 seats. I can have as many valves as I need. So I got quotes as if I had 4 other people come in on them with me.

So the quote:

40 intake $97.75 each
40 intake seats $17.50 each
40 exhaust $100.25 each
40 exhaust seats $17.50 each.

Now this is subject to change, but all I am doing is seeing if people would even think about this.

I think it'll be hard to find people in the miata world willing to spend 2k on valves and seats alone. Which is a shame, because I like fancy parts and am hoping to be proven wrong.

Me too, however this works out I will still have to buy 40 sets. He won't machine any less in the valve seats so... Thats how it is.

I find it hard to believe that it costs that much to convert over to Titanium. Not saying my statement is valid, but damn. Have you consulted with other valve train manufacturers?

It is something I had contemplated, but thought it was out of reach for me, so I never looked into it. I am curious as to how much gain this modification would net.

I have consulted a handful of other manufacturers and this is the best price from a reputable company. Now there are cheaper companies but I know what can happen when you use cheap titanium.

It lightens the top end weight and makes the engine more rev happy. They are stronger than stainless valves. Lastly the instant throttle response is even crisper. Which is perfect for me.

Long term goals, lightened flywheel and pulleys, stroker kit, irtbs, supercharger, 6 speed, and even more... all in the search for instant pedal feel.

So no chance if 4 more guys. I have thought about buying all the sets myself and building 4 heads the same way I am building mine and selling them off to cover the cost of my head.

Maybe a couple of people would be into that?

Damn..... as cool as that would be... i just cant justify the price (for my own build)... there are guys running soooooooooo much power on the stainless valves, with no issues whatsoever
Very cool though... and gets my mind going.... but, damn........

Yeah. This is why I cannot imagine buying all 5 sets, and building 5 heads and selling the other 4. Really expensive up front but I would have them professionally ported and polished (I know polishing your valve passages is highly controversial but a mild polish causes the passage to be smoother and doesn't have the adverse effects of a full mirror polish) fully build valve train. Maruha Cams, Toda Cam gears, and lots of forged goodies. A high guess of what my head will cost is $7500.

That is a lot of money to put up front.

Going Ti valves would be pretty long down on the prio list and with my logic only be interesting for the 4th or 5th engine trying to squeeze the last out when faced with a regulation making it "worth it".

Going that deep into a build have IMHO nothing to do with of the shelf "goodies" regarding any part involved in the airflow (OK, ST valves are OTS and good enough for a lot of engines, unsure about exhaust for high boost though).

There is but 1 or 2 people on this whole forum, of which you are 1, that are stupid enough or silly enough to spend 2k on valves.

We boost our cars because its the most bang for the buck. We drive lowly BP's, and anyone stupid enough to sink that kinda cash into an n/a or supercharger build just hates himself or is really that dumb, or is so rich and ballin that they can't think of more challenging ways to throw away money.

And comments like this:
Are going to get you laughed off the forum.

Good luck with your 40 sets of valves, or 5 extra heads or whatever. I hope you're prepared to lose a ginormous chunk of money "in the name of science" lolol

Most valve manufacturers don't recommend Ti for boosted applications because they retain heat better than steel. Most manufacturers also recommend Beryllium copper seats and valve guides to guarantee long valve life. Plus beryllium is toxic when aerosolized so some machine shops won't cut the valve seats. There are other companies that make copper alloys with out beryllium but they are still expensive.
The problem as stated above is that the bp isn't a high revving unit and outside of drag racing the turbos most of us use run out of steam before the benefits of a marginally lightened valve train would be effective.
You might look into other custom features like hollow valve stems in steel valves to reduce valve weight as a more cost effective and boost friendly solution

I don't get why. I understand you daily drive your car, right now so do I. But I plan on building a full on race car for the track. So when I drive my ass off, I like to know that what I built will stay together. I don't want to spend a "ginormous chunk of money" but if the situation arises I have no problem doubling my buying price of the valves and seats.

Because a BP isn't a race car motor. That's why.
But that's just my opinion, don't let me stop you from doing it lol

If I was making it rain I'd be doing an engine swap and investing money into a engine worth investing money into.

Different strokes for different folks, dude. Just because you can't understand why someone would drop some serious coin on a high-power N/A BP doesn't mean there aren't good reasons to do it for the people out there who are willing and able to spend the money. Maybe you want a motor built to a specific ruleset, or maybe you want a bombproof 170whp N/A powerplant that you can thrash on track for a few years without worrying about all the heat management issues a turbo system brings.

I see a special kind of irony in someone who's stupid enough to purchase a C5 automatic criticizing the automotive purchasing choices of others :dealwithit:

Hence the 2nd sentence.
And since we're on the subject: why don't you please please please tell me what's wrong with a daily driver c5 auto?

If I was spending 10k on an engine, it would be an LSx or f20c or something, not a bp. Like you said, different strokes, but when you can have a lot more power with the same reliability for almost the same money I'll take that option.

Then you should stay away from Ti in any part possible IMHO.
Even proper grade Ti have poor wear characteristics and I would suggest checking regularly (every 10 race hour at least).
Yes there are Ti in production vehicles, but you would then assume that they have freedom with every related part (design spring rate/pressure as they wish), not just slam it in there and add the next available spring just to make sure.

Tear it down every 8-10 hours, fine, then you know what you are doing and can judge the benefits yourself.

It doesn't matter.

He makes money building BP's for people, not other engines. the more money they waste on a BP the more money he makes. Therefore everyone should spend ALLOFIT.

The best part was when OP posted this on ClubRoadster first and then seemed indignant that the swaggots over there didn't want to spend the money on these things.

Well I was hoping that maybe a couple of guys over there would be into it, but none the less... I came here. Swaggotry is a great name for it.

To the guy who said stay away from Ti valves: What you say has a valid point but (and this is a big but) I am not looking to do the stuff to the valves that causes failure. No turbo (at most a supercharger with low psi) and all the proper supporting mods to back it up ie. ti retainers, becu seats. Now am I saying that they will go without failure? No, I know how they can fail and why they do, so maybe that could help me make mine last way longer.

And if this option ends out being way too expensive, I will just take my time finding a 323 gtr head with it's better airflow and sodium valves (even though they aren't oversized) and go with that path (which I would still build the valve train and the cams to the spec I needed). Who knows.

so not only do they cost 2k, but are more prone to fail than stainless? hahaha

#swaggotry

I understand what you are saying by all means, but you have to understand that no matter what, I would still go nuts. I have had loads of people tell me to put a rotary in it but I would throw a 3 rotor with roundabouts 400hp and built to withstand 800hp but then I would have little to no low end grunt. I could throw a honda engine in it, but that is the last thing I care to do (no offence to honda) and I have thought about v8s and v6s but v8s are too heavy and I never found a v6 i liked enough.

I understand that what I am saying is silly or stupid or whatever, but what if every time someone wanted to build something crazy, someone stopped them. No Koenigsegg Grenada, no PJP Rolls Royce, no Kai Bakken Audi or Lotus, the cobra that Magnus Jinstrand built wouldn't exist, and lastly there would be no Singer Porsche. All of those people would have just said, "You're right. Lets just do tasteful mods, and be happy with the car."

If you think a 3 rotor will have little to no low end grunt, you've got another think coming.


V8s aren't heavy, either. A proper LS1 swap adds minimal weight to a Miata.

Carry on with your bad self with your valves, but for someone who is presenting themselves as someone who knows a lot about things and stuff, there's some pretty silly statements being made.

Tracking down a BPD head when you're just going to build it anyways is pretty silly. Also silly being that we have guys on here making 400whp on 100% stock Miata heads.

Not spending $2k on Ti valves != not building a Koenigsegg. I will simply take my $2k and spend it on something that will significantly improve the performance of my car. If you show I can add significant value with the mod, I am all for it. If I wanted to spend money on every possible improvement to my car, it wouldn't get done. I wish you luck on your $10k head, most of my build won't cost that much.

1) First and foremost: Don't let our pessimism stop you from doing anything.
2) There are so many other 4 cylinders that make more power and torque and are more reliable. If you don't think a built k24 is impressive what are you doing spending 10k on a BP? I mean, c'mon.
3) There are plenty of v6's that also make a ton of power and torque. Or you can do boosted I6 or soemthing equally nuts and make more power than you know what to do with.
4) A v8 swap is what, like 200lb more over a BP? That's next to nothing. You can easily do weight redux to compensate.
5) An alum LS v8 can be built to accomodate anything your little heart desires.

Finally, regarding the last portion: see comment 1 again, but also keep in mind that if you're balling that hard, and want to spend absurd amounts of money in the name of science, well, that's pretty cool and carry on.

If you really have Koeniggsegg funds and want to spend them on a BP then I'll just kick back and watch this thread. Should be pretty sweet if you actually deliver. There's a few guys here that are doing this (1BAD, kaisersoze, etc) and we all just drool over their cars and give em props.

So we're not as much haters as some think :)

What Vlad said. We don't hate people who spend money. We hate people who seem to waste money on something not needed. You would get the same reaction if you posted about wanting to spend $10k on a motec instead of on valves.

Let's be clear - I was replying to Vlad, not the OP. Even if they were reliable (which I question), I think $2k in Ti valves/becu seats is a silly price tag for parts that have almost no benefit.

I have no problem with a bomb proof na bp miata for the track. I just don't think it needs a 10k head to be bomb proof.

I gave both you and emilio (and others that followed) props for what you're doing with na miatas. Heck, we even propped hustler after rustling his jimmies a little bit lol

Agreed. If you want to make big power (think 180whp+) in a BP, headwork is required, but $10k is just silly. A fully built head from us is about $5k, but that's full porting, valvetrain, valves, new exhaust guides, and cams spec'd to the application - there's literally nothing left to do.

I love n/a BP threads. :dancegay:

I'll never try to argue that turbo power isn't cheaper, but there's something to be said for the simplicity of an N/A setup, and there are quite a few people out there willing to pay for that simplicity.

It's my job to give them the best N/A bang for their bucks :)

I agree that there's a time and place for n/a motors, in fact, i have my own rather "built" n/a motor.

BPs just make me sad, though. It's one of those motors that's good because of the chassis they're in, instead of vice versa.