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Old 08-25-2014, 09:13 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
I suppose I could write a long dissertation on header design and fabrication. if you know what you are looking at, you can see that the RB is made properly. It is a simple design and fabrication techniques but he uses very high quality materials. Even the Maruha does not use an investment cast stainless flanges. That is a very expensive to tool, indestructible, dimensionally stable and high precision piece.
Just one note on RB, many probably have the same experience.
Mine is now close to 10 years old, and have been used without any flex tube at all during that time and have probably seen about 80 race hours (some do this in one year).
I have lately noticed hairline cracks around the collector, but the rhomboid shaped reinforcements are placed just right.

The reports of cracked, hard to fit, distorted ebay headers are not few, and sometimes just after a few hours of use (the sound of cracked primaries at track is not uncommon).
I have had my eyes set on a Staal header designed just for my intake, cams and rpm, but the RB is not the limiting factor, yet, if ever (at peaky 200+whp maybe).

If I would do anything I'd replace the end bend+flange with a Vband, to add some ground clearance (mine have been scraped a lot).
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:20 AM   #22
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And from the auto-x side of things. About half the RB headers seem to last forever without cracking, the other half crack in the first year normally at the head flange welds or on the collector.
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:38 AM   #23
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Me, trying to sell Miata parts. Busted.

If you are so passionate, put your money where your mouth is. Buy an ebay and RB, dyno test them with some reasonable control so we can see the results. Why don't you do that? You seem to be very very passionate about it. Do you have a reason why you don't do that?

I suppose I could write a long dissertation on header design and fabrication. if you know what you are looking at, you can see that the RB is made properly. It is a simple design and fabrication techniques but he uses very high quality materials. Even the Maruha does not use an investment cast stainless flanges. That is a very expensive to tool, indestructible, dimensionally stable and high precision piece.

All of the ebay headers Ihuge miss matches from head pipes to flange. Even .020 can knock 6 horsepower off and I have seen 60 and 80 thousandths with gaps I can drop a quarter into. Series comedy. You may notice the good headers have long continuous multiple bends with no joints anywhere where flow is critical. The cheap headers do not. They are made up of many segments and they pay no attention to where they put those joints. They are not argon (back) purged and ground welds so all that splurge is inside the tubes. Cheap filler rod that rusts. Merge collectors that are way too short. Etc

Those don't know with a proper header looks like just see shiny stainless and think it's all the same.
Ugh, look at this huckster trying to peddle stuff that actually works. I can't believe that you have the audacity to put your money where your mouth is and test crazy $2000 JDM (as ****) parts in a controlled environment and post the results.

You're outta control, man.
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:53 AM   #24
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My first two RB headers cracked at #3 and #4 primary tubes enter the head flange. First was replaced under warranty (thankfully had photographic evidence showing when cracks first developed before warranty expired) and second cracked after 1 year and was repaired by a friend. That one sits on a shelf now. I suspect primary cause of failure was lots of autox abuse, worn out OEM motor mounts and polyurethane exhaust hangers. No problems with eBay RB copy since replaced OEM motor mounts with Mazda Comp rubber mounts. On my 1.8 motor swap I have bought a new RB header and will likely return to OEM rubber exhaust mounts and add a 3rd motor mount up top.

Re: ceramic coating, I want to keep heat out of engine bay but I've always read not to ceramic coat polished SS as the coating doesn't bond well and begins flaking off in service. Do Jet Hot scuff up the surface to give the coating a good key to adhere to? How long is the coating holding up for you that have done it?
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:55 AM   #25
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Swain tech media blasts all their parts that get their coating. Because without the specific surface finish the ceramic coating wont adhere at all. This is also why they will not coat the inside of headers and tubes.
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Old 08-25-2014, 11:34 AM   #26
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Re: ceramic coating, I want to keep heat out of engine bay but I've always read not to ceramic coat polished SS as the coating doesn't bond well and begins flaking off in service. Do Jet Hot scuff up the surface to give the coating a good key to adhere to? How long is the coating holding up for you that have done it?
I've had ceramic put onto many headers and manifolds. The shop I use always puts parts into an abrasive tumbling machine before coating. Have never had a flaking issue.

The red car had a coated RB header on it when I bought it. PO records say it's been on there since 2007. Again, no flaking.

So, like other things, prep is key. I suspect you're right, if coating were applied directly onto a polished part, it may not last that long.
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Old 08-25-2014, 05:45 PM   #27
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Me, trying to sell Miata parts. Busted.

If you are so passionate, put your money where your mouth is. Buy an ebay and RB, dyno test them with some reasonable control so we can see the results. Why don't you do that? You seem to be very very passionate about it. Do you have a reason why you don't do that?

I suppose I could write a long dissertation on header design and fabrication. if you know what you are looking at, you can see that the RB is made properly. It is a simple design and fabrication techniques but he uses very high quality materials. Even the Maruha does not use an investment cast stainless flanges. That is a very expensive to tool, indestructible, dimensionally stable and high precision piece.

All of the ebay headers Ihuge miss matches from head pipes to flange. Even .020 can knock 6 horsepower off and I have seen 60 and 80 thousandths with gaps I can drop a quarter into. Series comedy. You may notice the good headers have long continuous multiple bends with no joints anywhere where flow is critical. The cheap headers do not. They are made up of many segments and they pay no attention to where they put those joints. They are not argon (back) purged and ground welds so all that splurge is inside the tubes. Cheap filler rod that rusts. Merge collectors that are way too short. Etc

Those don't know with a proper header looks like just see shiny stainless and think it's all the same.
I think a lot of people assumed that the more expensive pieces would perform better than a less expensive one. They were wrong, in terms of making any more hp or tq anyway. Awesome test and thanks again for taking the time to do it and sharing.
But I do think it's a little contradictory, that you wouldn't test a cheap header when you had it in your hands? We must all assume they make less hp than a more expensive header. But what are we basing that on? Not proof or evidence I gather, but on the "looks" of it. Like you stated you can make some observations based on the design and fabrication of it in terms of expected life and longevity but the original question (by doing back to back dyno tests) is what are the numbers.
What if the OBX header made 3hp less than a Racing Beat? Maybe it makes the same. The hp/dollar would be better on the OBX than the Racing Beat and possibly an easier entry price for some people. That's if they both lasted equal amount of years/months.
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Old 08-25-2014, 06:11 PM   #28
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Visual evidence and engineering judgment was all that it took to dismiss the ebay ***** headers. You don't have to test a stock cast manifold to tell you that it won't flow as well as an RB header. You also don't have to waste two hours of expensive dyno time to determine that a Chinese junk pile, with obvious flaws and an obvious lack of testing isn't going to out perform the industry standard where the highly tested and optimized JDM parts couldn't.

Now, back in the land of things that matter, I have a header that was coated by Nitroplate in Nashville, and I couldn't possibly be any happier with it. After 25000 miles of street use, it has the beginnings of surface rust on the bottom of the collector, but Nitroplate is going to recoat it for free as soon as I can make time to pull it out and send it to them. Their coating also insulates so well that you can hold the header for 30 seconds or more after cranking the car, and work around it within ~15 minutes of shutting it down without burning yourself. I'm a fanboy.
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Old 08-25-2014, 06:56 PM   #29
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Now, back in the land of things that matter, I have a header that was coated by Nitroplate in Nashville, and I couldn't possibly be any happier with it. After 25000 miles of street use, it has the beginnings of surface rust on the bottom of the collector, but Nitroplate is going to recoat it for free as soon as I can make time to pull it out and send it to them. Their coating also insulates so well that you can hold the header for 30 seconds or more after cranking the car, and work around it within ~15 minutes of shutting it down without burning yourself. I'm a fanboy.
Reminds me I need to put that on my off season to do list.
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:11 AM   #30
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Visual evidence and engineering judgment was all that it took to dismiss the ebay ***** headers. You don't have to test a stock cast manifold to tell you that it won't flow as well as an RB header. You also don't have to waste two hours of expensive dyno time to determine that a Chinese junk pile, with obvious flaws and an obvious lack of testing isn't going to out perform the industry standard where the highly tested and optimized JDM parts couldn't.
Agreed.

Someday I will exchange my Ebay header and have data to share. Looking at the header I know there is power on the table. It's a poorly engineered POS IMHO.

Props for the testing Emilio.
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:15 AM   #31
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The Maxim was a a pretty header, very nicely made. The Maruha VP was even more gorgeous and beautifully crafted. Unfortunately, they made no more power than the somewhat pedestrian but still well made Racing Beat. In both cases, we baselined the RB, swapped the other header on a hour later and ran the exact same tune. We didn't have bot the JDM (yo) headers here to run all three on the same day but the results clearly indicate they all make the same peak, The RB in both cases making more torque below the torque peak.
Great that someone did this. Thank you.

This is awesome news for my wallet, as I am about to buy a header for my NB. I would like to ask two questions

1) Would you say that pump gas (euro98) and no vvt (99 engine) would make any difference? perhaps at lower range because 4-1 vs 4-2-1?

2) and (probably the wrong place for this, but you heard all 3 headers)... which one is quieter? I use the cars to go out of town on weekends and I like some conversation with the passenger (some of them at least), so less db is valuable to me.

thank you!
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Old 08-27-2014, 02:46 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by wmute View Post
Great that someone did this. Thank you.

This is awesome news for my wallet, as I am about to buy a header for my NB. I would like to ask two questions

1) Would you say that pump gas (euro98) and no vvt (99 engine) would make any difference? perhaps at lower range because 4-1 vs 4-2-1?

2) and (probably the wrong place for this, but you heard all 3 headers)... which one is quieter? I use the cars to go out of town on weekends and I like some conversation with the passenger (some of them at least), so less db is valuable to me.

thank you!
1. Not sure what you are asking. Would the test results change? I suspect not.

2. I have no idea
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Old 08-28-2014, 04:24 AM   #33
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1. Not sure what you are asking. Would the test results change? I suspect not.
yes that was my curiosity. if you had any reason to believe the results at low rpm would be different without vvt

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2. I have no idea
thank you anyways. power/tq being settled, dBs are the only variable left on the table (for my use).
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:49 AM   #34
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thank you anyways. power/tq being settled, dBs are the only variable left on the table (for my use).
You can buy a whole lot of mufflers for the price difference between the other two and the racing beat.
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Old 08-28-2014, 10:46 AM   #35
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From an acoustics perspective, they're all pretty similar designs. I would expect there to be little or no measurable difference between them.
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:18 PM   #36
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yes that was my curiosity. if you had any reason to believe the results at low rpm would be different without vvt.
I think I still do not understand precisely what you are asking the way you have typeded it.

Do stock cam BP engines without VVT have less low end torque? Yes
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Old 08-28-2014, 01:48 PM   #37
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You can buy a whole lot of mufflers for the price difference between the other two and the racing beat.
I already have an RB muffler.

I bought that one after looking around and reading that it is one of the quietest... did I get it all wrong?
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Old 08-28-2014, 02:04 PM   #38
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Thank you for the answers. I asked both questions because I saw some differences in shape (IIRC): the RB is 4-1 and the others are 4-2-1, the Maruha has the Venturi thingy, the MW is 2.25" and the others 2.375" and I wondered if that could map to some differences in sound or low end torque]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vehicular View Post
From an acoustics perspective, they're all pretty similar designs. I would expect there to be little or no measurable difference between them.
Thank you! (I know nothing about acoustics)


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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
I think I still do not understand precisely what you are asking the way you have typeded it.

Do stock cam BP engines without VVT have less low end torque? Yes
I was asking whether you expected different results in a non-vvt engine below 4k rpm (let's say).

I read in a few places that 4-2-1 is better for low end. There is less of that in the non VVT, and so it is more important. I also see the curves in the graph crossing more often at lower RPMs. I was wondering if with even lower tq (as one would find ow rev no vvt) it would look any different. But among the many things i dont know about are -dynosheet reading (I can see there is something weird on the maruha run but I have no idea what it is ) and physics as a whole... so I had to ask.

I hope I made myself clearer. English is not my first language.
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Old 08-28-2014, 03:15 PM   #39
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I already have an RB muffler.

I bought that one after looking around and reading that it is one of the quietest... did I get it all wrong?
We're talking about headers. After the initial slight sound increase I'd imagine would happen from upgrading a stock unit to an after market header, I doubt you'll see any difference between aftermarket headers in terms of sound levels. You adjust sound with mufflers, not headers.

This thread is talking about headers, not mufflers.

Header:




Muffler:

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Header comparison RB, Maruha, Maxim-racing_beat_56461_a.jpg  
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Old 08-28-2014, 03:23 PM   #40
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The RB has been tuned to make low-end torque and high-end power. Emilio has some cold, hard proof of it. Talking about the finer points of header design on an undersquare motor designed in the 80s is a waste of time when you consider that the exhaust side of the equation has been solved for a while and most gains are to be found on the intake side.
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