I am FAILaids - but at least my car runs now
 

Damnit! After spending the WHOLE weekend swapping motors I think I just blew the new one.

There is hope though, as it seems I have an electrical gremlin. I am 75 miles from home, walked in the freezing ass rain the rest of the way to campus, and would really like to get home tonight and not have to get my car towed. It's on the side of University Dr. in College Station right now.


SITUATION:

Was accelerating in 4th...heard a pop, motor shut down, was at 0rpm when I pushed in clutch and looked down. Coasted over, turned it over wincing, and it spun freely.

Does not start. LC-1 reads leaner than atmo (21.7), a default value apparently (22.4), while cranking. Mine usually continues to display actual AFRs during cranking.

I do not smell fuel, but it's cold and windy, so no telling.

I have COPS, and didn't have tools to pull a plug.

Both lights on MS like usual.

Fuel pump humming away.

I checked all connections and all fuses.

I am unsure if it's mechanical or electrical. Acts like electrical issue now, but did go under load. Gave pop and rumble, but didn't seem violent enough to be a ventilated block.

Oil still clear from flush/change yesterday.

Oil pressure gauge was fluttering as it has been doing under load, but no audible detonation. I was considering changing sensor after hustler's recent account of his.



SETUP:

Brain's MS standalone
DIY COPS
"New" used motor that ran solid for 75miles (thanks Trey!)
460cc RX7 injectors



Thanks in advance.

you have GRID!

timing belt snapped?

Can has RPM reading in Megatune while cranking?
> AWSUM THX
> > K, iz lectrical.
> OH NOES
> > K, iz timing belt, mebbe CAS.

No has Megatune?
> K, is open oil filler, look at cam while turn crank.

OH yeah, newish timing belt tight. Check deflection upon install, still good.

My dumbass left laptop at home. Tach works (spark output=MS CAS input check).

So, the dash tach read 0 when it shut down yesterday, but now it reads properly when cranking?

Or am I mis-interpreting you? The tach dropped to 0 after you pushed in the clutch, or before?

I can't find any fuses on the diagram that would shut down the injectors, the coils, or any of the critical sensors while still leaving power on to the MS itself, though of course, in your '96, the fact that the tach on the dash moves only means that the MS is seeing a CAS input, not that the coils are working, or even receiving a trigger.

Actually, where are you taking power from for your COPs?

You watch grey's, dontcha?

You said the new one was tight, do you have a cover off? Or are you just saying it's new. This is the used one from Trey, yes? Not your built one?

Edit: swap #1 cop for either 2 or 4, see if it changes.

never watched a funnier show!

in for answer. I hope that motor lives on.

Lol, Had I read that a few days ago I would have never known wtf you were talking about. I saw that last night :laugh:

Where is willis? If your near SA i would gladly help.

That's still a long way from SA.

Tach was at 0 as I coasted over to the side of the road this morning...just saying engine was dead.

Tach does move when cranking.

Mine's a '92...and tach is powered by my coil tach outputs. I assume this means the coils are working. Will have to remember where I'm pulling power from, but I hard-wired everything from the ingnitor per sticky thread.

I still feel like I'm not getting fuel. No smell of fuel, no change in AFRs, even after cranking.

Me too...I was incredibly excited to see all of this weekend's work come to life, and also because I'm nearly "done" with my car for a while.

Ran strong for 75 miles, will diagnose over the next few days, but may have to sit til weekend due to exams/projects this week.

Ok, so nothing to prove that the ignition or triggers crapping out were responsible.

Yeah, sorry. I mis-read your sig. You're correct- a working tach means that power and triggers are reaching the coils.

I don't think you'd see any AFR indication on the wideband in the absence of combustion, but you're right- if you've got spark, and you've got compression, then fuel is the only remaining suspect.

A quick test would be to disconnect the tube from the throttle body inlet and have someone shoot a bit of starting fluid in there while you crank the starter. If that produces a result, and you both survive, then you know you've got a fuel problem.

Disconnect the electrical connector from an injector. Use a voltmeter to look for +12 between the white/red wire and ground.


Oh- this may seem like a random question, but do you have a CLT indication in Megatune? Yeah, I know you haven't got your laptop at the car right now, but it's something to check if you can.

^^^I don't know for sure yet if I've got compression...so am going to be checking all three: spark, fuel and compression.

Since this thread is worthless without pics:

On the side of the road for 2 hrs

Attachment 200078

Then for another 2 hrs after coffee and some studying

Attachment 200079


On the truck for another 2 hrs (trip usually takes me 1:20)

Attachment 200080



I had coolant indication this morning when setting base timing.

Will have to do the old starter fluid trick.



If this motor shit the bed expect to see a very large part-out here shortly. I'm almost afraid to do a compression test, and have been writing the FS ads in my head.

Yeah, I bring it up because the ECU's CLT wire passes through the same common connector (X-12) as the injector lines. So if you had CLT before, and now suddenly you don't, it means that you're a retard who forgot to snugly latch down that connector.

Thank you...you rock.

Will go check retard status.

EDIT: I know what you're talking about and did check that connector. Actually selling that whole harness with a set of injectors to make the RX7s PnP for the buyer, and will be hardwiring my own 550s since they have two different plug styles.

MegaTune still sees coolant temp...

Following along and learning much....


Joe, stupid question time, but if a T-belt had snapped then the CAS will not send signal and so then COPs will not fire and thus no tach reading right? So its 100% certain that the T-Belt is doing its job?

you gotta do something fierce to acutally "pop" a motor to the point it seizes up and cannot continue to run. like throw a rod.

make sure all your MS values look good. did you get in boost? most of the time the dread pop is an IC coupler falling off in boost cuase your dumb ass forgot to tighten it again, but on MS it should continue to run

I was in boost under hard load.

The transmission we put in was my back up 5pd which I wanted to test the shifting on.

Turns out it shifts smoother than my other tranny, but only has the bottom row of gears (missing 1st, 3rd and 5th).

Due to this I was carrying 2nd high, and hitting 4th low all morning. I was about two seconds into 4th, just shy of 4000rpm when it "let go."

Had I not been jamming Chevelle I might be able to better describe the sound.

Funny thing is it spins freely now, actually never was seized up, but did shut down,

So it's back at your house? An engine needs four things to run: spark, fuel, timing, and compression. Those first two are easy to check. Crank it a bit and check the plugs. If they're dry, you have a fuel issue. If not, ground all four plugs on the VC and check for spark. Move to the timing belt next, as the coils are now out of the way for removing the VC. Then move to compression, unless you have a gauge handy and want to check that first. Don't come back until a negative result is reached from one of these four tests. Sorry about my snippy attitude, bad day at work and I'm not sure how much diagnostic experience you have. These tests always point me in the right direction.

if youre not smelling fuel after cranking so much, it's not injecting.

I understand...now that it's at home I can do all this.

I was 75 miles away, in the snow, and wanted to make it home...was just asking around for common MS follies.

[QUOTE=Sparetire;527606]Joe, stupid question time, but if a T-belt had snapped then the CAS will not send signal and so then COPs will not fire and thus no tach reading right?[quote]That's correct. If he's got a tach reading, it means that the timing belt has not broken.


Well, I suppose it's hypothetically possible that the belt might have jumped a dozen teeth or so and is thus no longer in the correct position. Easy to verify by pointing a timing light at the pulley and making sure that the notch is somewhere in the general vicinity of TDC while cranking.


gospeed, you got a battery charger? You're gonna need it. :D

Nope...about to invest. Already dead.

Don't even feel like being out in the garage tonight. Emotionally drained from three days of motor swappage...really disappointed now. Maybe it will make sense in the morning.

Werd. Fuel smell comes on strong after a couple cranks without out burning.

I/C coupler seems logical/most likely/common.

Been there. The best thing you can do is relax once you get to that point. Its probably something odd and easaly fixed anyway once you have time and a clear head.

Don't run that part-out post in your head yet! I did the same and quickly figured out I'd be at a big loss.

Listen man if that engine ends up bad if it helps any I've got a spare 1.8 block from a 97 with 87k, it's disassembled, spun a bearing, but there wasn't any critical damage to the crank or even rods. I'd be willing to ship it off to you for dirt cheap(A Ulysses S. Grant), PM me if your willing. I suppose this all depends on your engine and the condition of your internals.

I just feel your pain, I'm on my third engine myself :(

Dude, you are currently in the same boat as I was when my baby popped on the way home from the dyno day. There is a fuel fuse under the dash (i think), you 100% sure that it is not blown?

I broke ring lands and was still able to drive home 100+mi trying to stay out of boost. If you blew the motor, ring lands would be what you blew. Trust me you would know it instantly, smoke would pour out the back like a scene from uncle buck. I have a feeling that your motor is fine. Get a cheap compression tester to verify.

^Bingo.

I have been here.

Like when finding that a nice forged stroker shortblock ate a thrustbearing in under 10K miles due to a improperly installed crank. Or when a bolt for a motor mount snapped in the block, neccesitating removal. Or when a rebuilt trans has shifting problems.....after basically doing three installation rmeovals trying to figure it out. Or when a rear wheel bearing dies and makes the car almost undriveable after a really long day at work and then the local shop (which you have to use because you dont have a press) tells you that they need a 600 dollar part that magically does not have a part number in order to repair the car and you have to basically threaten them to get them to deal straight. Or.....

Some car days just suck. But they pass. Like they said, its probably something relatively minor. And then you will have a fun reliable car, braging rights, and yet more knowledge.

Yes, breathe, have a beer, and think about other things. Play videogames, or whatever else gets your mind off crap.

This is what gets my mind off crap...but I'll let it go til morning.

[/hustler]

Glad to hear most think the motor didn't go. I started to remove plugs, but my wife came out and started bitchin'. Inside she told me she's tired of me thinking about nothing but that car.

I'm sure going to miss her.

The car or your wife?

^Seriously. If I ever have a woman who puts up with me enough to marry me I'll ditch the car in a second if it comes to that.

Sucks man. Good luck diagnosing it though. Hopefully its not blown

Take care of the wife, you can work on the car later.... ;)

meh just for shits pull the 02 sensor and see if it will run. If it does then its probly your cat being stoped up etc.

No cat...completely open 3" exhaust installed with "new" motor.

I knew I should have done some datalogging, but old tune was both rich and retarded, and yesterday was test drive while reformatting new/old VAIO tuning laptop.

New theory is that the ARTech exhaust flow SO MUCH I was lean in high boost.

This is unlikely though, as previous exhaust was an open 2.5", no cat, that went STRAIGHT out the back of the car, no bends.


Oh yeah, and car goes before wife does.

Fun little update:

Pulled the plugs, 1&2 were dripping with oil, with oil seen on top of the pistons.

3&4 are dry, pistons look normal.

#1 piston looks like it has a clean, dull grey fragment of something sitting on top of it.

Right now things aren't looking good.

Still no sign of fuel injection.

NEO: If I've got power to MS I should have power to fuel injectors right? As Joe pointed out, I'm getting signal from temp sensor, which is same branch of harness. Where is the "fuel" fuse?

http://neomiata.com/garage/1993_Miat...20Diagrams.pdf

INJ Fuse in the fuse box under the hood. On page 3.

I don't need to quote the extra flow diameter numbers do i?

No...no you don't.

Got an A in Fluid Dynamics, and a year later here I am facepalming myself.

Was too eager to take it out, and my mom was putting XP on the old Vaio to use as a tuning laptop since the hinge on mine freaks out and puts it into hibernation, killing datalogs, every time I hit a bump.

I was running your timing map, dialed back 15%, had added 5 and 10 to the top two rows of boost I see on the VE table, and the WI is purely a safety blanket.

I want to jump of the 7th floor of the library right now, good thing I'm on the 3rd floor of the Engr/Phys building huh.


EDIT: No, I don't live with my mom...she takes care of my 3yr old daughter during the day.

You will look back at this one day and laugh.

As long as I'm driving the new Boxster Spyder that day of the week.

Great news! You have oil pressure!

Wait......

Seriously though, does the car make horrible death sounds when you crank it? If it was a chunk of piston or a valve in there even running the starter would result in some nasty rattles.

I do have oil pressure.

No bad sounds, although if I put my ear right over the motor it sounds a little hollow...strange.

Will have to make time for proper diagnosis when I finally get home this evening.

I call fuel line --> possibly in-tank, especially if its a recently installed piece. Did you install a new fuel pump recently?

In the INJ fuse were out, there'd be no power to the MS, the CAS, or anything else on the Main Relay. Probing the white/red wires at the injector connectors for +12 relative to GND would still be a good idea, though.



Well, don't jump out of any buildings just yet. Any chance your VC gasket is shot, and oil was simply pooled up in the spark plug wells which fell in when you pulled the plugs?


Ok, maybe a short building...


Still, let's assume that something catastrophic did happen to #1 and #2. #3 and #4 should still be firing.

I can't quite tell if there's a Zebra on the horizon just yet...


Relatively easy to check for. Listen to the FPR with the pump running (screwdriver in ear.) You can hear fuel sloshing through it when the pump is on.

Or just disconnect one of the lines under the hood and have someone turn the car on very briefly while you catch the emitted fuel in a can, with a fire extinguisher nearby but just outside of the likely blast radius.

^^

I did have something similar happen to me (Hydra-EMS) it was the injector fuse

Then perhaps his main relay shit the bed?

Good news!


I've got compression:

150
140
150
150

Keep in mind this is a cold test, can't really warm up the motor right now.

Screwdriver test also tells me I've got spark.

I verified cam timing.

Just leaves fuel, and don't have any carb and choke cleaner handy. No smell of unburnt fuel at all during cranking, and WBO2 stays full lean before, during and after cranking.

FPR checks out, can hear fuel passing by, pump is on. Pulling the main EFI relay shuts off everything: pump, MS, LC-1.

I do not get tach info in MT, and dash tach does not move...which doesn't make sense since I'm getting spark.

Reflashed map, no change.




MODS feel free to move this to MegaSquirter section.

NO PART-OUT you big bunch of sharks.

Sweet! So whats the deal with the slightly visible chunk? Its obviously not a valve or piston chunk. Maybe just the really tricky light in there or a bit of carbon build-up?

The dash tach gets signal from the ignition or the CAS?

Souds like an electrical failure killing fuel. Totaly makes sense since the engine died but turns freely. The same failure likely killed power needed for the tach of somehow killed signal to it. You said you have oil pressure, meaning that the oil pressure guage will move a bit when you are cranking it?

MT and dash get tach signal from coils. check the MAIN fuse.

Goddamnit what's this main fuse everyone speaks of?

All the underhood fuses are good, the big 80amp, two 40amps, and a 30.

Do any of your dash needles move at all?

Yes, all of them.

Or all but the tach.

As long as my COPS are firing I should be getting tachout signal right?

It sounds like you have a bad case of Boneitis.
http://cleverocity.com/albums/future...restock202.jpg

But seriously, are you leaking oil anywhere? Is your PCV valve working properly? Is it possible your crankcase became super pressurized and blew something? It doesn't sound like you went too lean and detonated. When I grenaded my fourth cylinder it was catastrophic. The motor would still turn fine, but there were bits of metal everywhere. Oh and I had like no compression in the cylinder.

Oh yeah, no oil leaks...


I think the oil on the #1 and #2 plugs was from two oil fills. I ran a flush for about an hour Monday, drained, and then poured new oil. I used to be a bartender so I freehand, and funnels are for pussies. Occasionally I miss.

If all the other guages work fine then that (correct me if I am wrong here folks) eans that the reason the tach is not doing its thing is that it is not getting any RPM signal even when the engine is turning. If the signal comes from the COPs and they are working great for sure, then its pretty darn likely that the link from the COPs to the tach is the failure point. I doubt its a coincidence that this occurs just as the engine refuses to run. Is there some way that the link from the COPs to the tach shorted and also killed RPM signal to the MS? Would you get any fuel injection if you have no tach signal to the MS?

If the answer is no, then you have about a 90% chance that that tach signal wire/circuit/link of some sort from the COPs is the problem.

Insulation rubbed off and firewall grounding FTL.