Incorrect tooth clocking on ATI dampers
 

Anyone noticed this before? I have minimal experience with ATI dampers but I noticed this while setting one up on a customer's motor today. It appears that ATI's crank wheels are keyed half a tooth off of OEM. The TDC marks are correct (verified piston position), but the teeth themselves are 1/2 teeth off, which means that both cams are either advanced or retarded roughly 7 crank degrees from the OEM config, depending on how you time the engine.

ATI damper. TDC mark is lined up with the high point on the teeth:

Attachment 229365

OEM crank gear, TDC mark is lined up with the low point on the teeth:

Attachment 229366

Buh.

Where is the woodruff key aligned on the ATI? The rear belt guide is a separate piece, right? Maybe it's just the mark that's wrong and not the keyway?

I've never actually checked mine (and don't have any photos), but I would have thought that if the motor really was mis-timed by that much then it wouldn't run as well as it does.

--Ian

I thought the same, first thing I did was throw a dial indicator on #1 piston and verify true TDC, The mark is correct, the teeth are off.

OK. I tend to find TDC with a screwdriver rather than by looking at the marks (I don't trust the plastic cover, and once the ATI is installed it's really hard to get that cover off to see the mark on the belt guide.

I did find a photo of me checking the cam timing:

http://www.codrus.com/miata/fm2r/timing-belt-check1.jpg

The intake gear is lined up, but it's an adjustable Toda and I don't know how much trust to put in the nominal "zero" on it. The one on the right is an OEM gear and it does not appear to be half a tooth off.

--Ian

Huh, I guess you can even kind of see that the key isn't lined up with a 'valley' in product pictures...

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3bb2915025.jpg

Mine look like that if I retard the crank by 7 degrees. Both marks line up perfectly as they always do with the OEM gear. If I set the motor to TDC, neither mark lines up - they're both in between teeth.

The ATI is definitely "wrong", the question is whether it was intentional to change the power curve or whether it was an oversight.

I was also unable to get what I would call "perfect alignment". if they fix it I kind of want a new one now.

No pistons in this motor, so I can't verify TDC, woodruff looks to be vertical by eye...

can quality control be this loose?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2915c932a8.jpg

Yikes. I have two here, I checked the other before posting this. Also checked three different OEM gears just in case I had an oddball there. Both of the ATIs are the same, as are all 3 of the OEMs.

Mines the same as Ted75zcar. So I guess they do have a bit of QC problem.

EDIT: Clearer picture. Mine looks to be about 1-3° off. Flange notch is inline with keyway. This unit is about 1-2 years old and I can't identify anything I would call a lot code.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...19ba28a147.jpg

Wow thanks for pointing that out Savington - I just checked my OEM and my brand new in box ATI, and yes, they are in fact offset from another.

So what are the implications of this? Compensate in megasquirt? Would a timing light help figure it out?

well, I believe the Cam timing will be off. You can't really compensate with MS (well, intake with VVT). You could possibly use adjustable cam gears, but then VVT again on intake side. If I had a new one like that I think I would ask ATI what is up, and if they didn't have a really good answer I would ask for a good one or my money back.

But will effect spark timing on NA's which rely on the CAS.

My ATI is BNIB on the shelf. Time to open the box and eyeball it.

Good thing I have adjustable cam gears waiting on the same shelf.

FML. Taking 10 from work to go snap a picture.

Edit: My sway bar is blocking my crank bolt access.. so I cant turn the motor to check. I'll have to check after working hours..

I just remembered that because a timing light is used to set initial timing, the offset won't hurt the spark timing aspect on the NA6/8 setups. But it could really change the powerband of the cams up or down. 4 degrees advanced or retarded makes a difference so I wonder how much more up to 7 can do. Very interesting.

^ that's assuming that the timing wheel aligns correctly to the keyway on the crank, since spark is timed off the timing wheel.

There are three independent things that must all line up for timing to be correct:
1) the keyway on the cog and crank (true crank position)
2) the teeth for the belt (cam positions)
3) the timing wheel (crank sensor position)

The timing mark doesn't really even matter as long as everything lines up to #1 (keyway). But in post #3, Sav said that he check everything vs. actual TDC, and the teeth are indeed off.

My question- does #3 (timing wheel) line up correctly to the keyway?

He's already shown that the cam timing issue is relative to the keyway, not just the TDC mark. Also, in the ATI product photo I posted above, you can actually see that the keyway isn't lined up with a cog 'valley' like on the OEM gear.

What about repairing it? That rear plate is removable and installs with a small swage pin. I could drill the hole for the pin in removable plate.

BUT - I'm at work and not looking directly at it, is the woodruff key - to the - gear teeth a permanent thing?

Sorry, I was a little slow on the pickup there- edited post accordingly. I still wonder about the position of the timing wheel relative to the keyway.

Yeah no kidding, but it's even worse specifically with this product: over the years they've made a LOT of mistakes specifically with the ati damper, not just this.

The rear plate with that notch pin is just a marker, it has no effect on the operation of the engine. The issue is that the keyway is broached into the crank gear in the wrong orientation. All of the other TDC marks (rear timing wheel guide and TDC/10/20 marks on the damper itself) are then keyed off that incorrect keyway location. ASSuming the two pieces can be separated (damper and gear), you could separate them and replace the gear, or even re-broach the existing gear with a keyway shaper, assuming the gear can be re-installed in a different orientation. Lots of ASSumptions there.

If the two pieces can't be separated, you would need to rotate the damper roughly 172deg, re-broach the keyway, and add your own scribe marks for TDC.

My educated guess would say that the wheels themselves are consistent, since I'm sure they're either waterjetted or laser cut from a CAD file. There is a substantial possibility of error in the bolt hole location on the damper itself, though. I don't know if I have the parts in the shop to adequately determine whether or not that orientation is correct, since I'm not sure whether FM's wheel is a scratch design or whether it uses the Protege 36-tooth orientation.

OEM dampers still like to fling themselves from the motor at modest power levels (325whp+) so that's no bueno. What other issues have ATIs had?

This. At times it drives me pretty close to jumping ship.

You know a RWD probe swap would be really sweet.

It would, but it would involve a lot of Miata parts, which would defeat the purpose.

IIRC: ID too small making it a royal pain to install/remove, many also arrived damaged (not from shipping). I'm thinking there was at least 1 more issue but can't recall atm

So do we have any dampers that we know are good to go now? I know BHJ and now ATI have issues

I have been eyeing the JPM Damper. Its definitely not cheap. JPM Crankshaft Damper

From BHJ's site:

Makes u think.

I have Jesse Prather's balancer, but the car has not run with it yet. I checked the timing belt clocking, and it is like factory. Here are a few things I have noticed however:

First, there is little to no coating on the steal surfaces, and it started to rust quickly. I will have to sand the rust off and paint it, which pisses me off after spending over $800.

Second, it was borderline to small to fit over the crankshaft. Hoping it wont be an issue when i pull it off. Next time I install I will try heating it in an oven.

One of the ignition wheel fasteners was bad and had to be replaced. Not that big a deal, but for the money I spent, damn!

The trigger wheel clocking is different from the original Electromotive trigger wheel kit I got years ago. Not sure whats going on there unless there has been a change in where Electromotive mounts the trigger. That or one of them is F'ed up. BHJ balancer and trigger wheel is set up for Electromotive management that Jesse Prather helped develop.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2761bd376.jpeg
So I just checked mine, here's a picture seems like it's lined up correctly. For reference I bought it in May/june 2017.

Bought mine 2016ish

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b43368bb34.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4da76b95bb.jpg

^ how does the key lineup with the timing belt teeth? That seems to be the issue.

Ah, crap. Hopefully, I have a picture of mine so I can verify if its right or not...

Mines coming off in a few weeks to replace Boundary Engineering's leaking front main seal

I just used a cheap AutoZone one. Worked fine.

--Ian

Is there a link to the issues with the BHJ dampers? The Supermiata damper thread says that there were quality control issues so they stopped using BHJ - but that could mean anything between some of the the dampers were square instead of round, to cosmetic issues that don't affect it's performance...

Just checked mine -- Its off a tooth as well. Before I raise hell, has anyone contacted ATI yet? Sav?

Edit: Called anyways.. they said one of you guys called Friday. Told me to call back in a few days. Post here if you guys get more info please.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...514d7fd9f8.jpg

ATI is going to have like 10 problem on their hands just from this thread

https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...y-build-94063/

post 49

Considering no one has produced an example of a correctly machined pulley my money is betting ATI has a problem with every damper they produced to date.

Thanks. Looks like it's multiple different serious QC issues then, nothing minor.

So despite how the ati dampers are all wrong. Haven't they proven to be a good quality product on a ton of miata engines?

This is a question not a statement. I have never owned on and am in the market for a damper. It just seems a lot of guys are running them without issues.

The pulley in post #8 looks correct. The ones in #10 & #32 appear close, within a degree or 2. I'm guessing they either have a fixturing problem, processing problem or both.

.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...-10-5aafd1.jpg


Mine is brand new still in the box.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...319_102650.jpg

I believe the motor shown here is the motor being built for me by Andrew. I contacted Fab9 since I bought my crank pulley from them. Brian from Fab9 put a call in to ATI and we're waiting to hear back from an engineer at ATI regarding the issue. I should hear back today and will update when I have more news.

Big credit to Andrew for finding the issue and bringing it to everyones attention.

Amazing attention to detail to even discover this issue. Props!

Quoted for the truth -

BTW: Just for some time reference, my ATI (post #40)was purchased last month from FAB9.

Makes me really glad I went with the SuperMiata damper instead of the ATI. So with two adjustable gears one would be able to adjust their cam timing in theory to correct this. There should really be a bulletin posted up by ATI and their vendors for existing owners for a workaround once they confirm the issue on their end unless they plan to do a recall..

If this was unintentional, I have a feeling they are going to try to slip this under the radar as much as possible. -- Hope I'm wrong.

+1 for Andrew/Trackspeed for catching this.

Hopefully the pulley itself can be removed from the damper assembly without destroying the damper. ASSuming it can, because why wouldn't it be. Rehobbing the keyway is a good fix for the crafty enginebuilder but why bother. High chance ATI will make another run of pulleys with the teeth oriented to the keyway properly and offer a free exchange. AFAIK they make the pulleys in house using the same equipment we use to make ours, so turnaround should be pretty quick. Teeth are added after the part comes off the lathe, so it's up to the operator to orient the key correctly. It's a manual trim that takes skill and is easy to fuck up.

LOL @ QC in aftermarket performance companies. First article what???

Seriously? Sheesh, a simple go/no-go fixture is all it would take to catch something like this.

Yeah but Ray retired, so now who's going to make the go/no fixture?

I am sure that there are several ways to skin this cat. My point is that I am dissapointed that these simple activities aren't incorporated into the process. Both as a consumer and as a producer. One event like this has the power to crush a business. Something like this in my field could shudder a multi-billion dollar corporation.

Hey lads,

Before we get to business, I'd first like to give a big kudos to Andrew as I know other engine builders by name who have installed these without notice.

After becoming aware of this scenario I quickly reached out to the engineer at ATi that we've dealt with over the years. He recognized that the production is indeed flawed and effects orders of ours as of the 12/2017. As ATi's largest re-seller of Miata dampers, we've since gone through over 150 units!

What's next?
I'll help in facilitating the exchange for these dampers even if that means it's on my dime to eat the shipping costs, although I'm hoping ATi is going to put on their big boy pants and support us in this area. This is a tremendous loss for us but solving this problem quickly is priority number one. Shortly I'll send a communication with the next steps, if you can confirm your purchase date with us falls within, please help by being proactive and send an email with your order number to the mailbox we created this morning to help clarify the process: EXCHANGEATI@GMAIL.COM

Email should follow a format like this:

Subject:
(Order number in subject line)

Body:
Order Number:
Name:
Address:
Phone Number:

They will replace all of the dampers that carry this flaw. They are immediately producing corrected dampers and my goal is to provide a solution with very minimal down time.

Didn't buy from us?
As we're streamlining the process I'm happy to help anyone who has purchased their ATi damper elsewhere. Please follow the same instructions above, just include the name of the company you purchased from.

As this will already be hectic to manage in what's already our busiest time of year, please keep communication to that email address. I'll keep an eye on it closely.

Cheers guys,
Bryan

So anything before 12/2017 is wrong? I got mine from their ebay store (as a fully functional blemish) 9/2017. Just installed it a couple weeks ago. No pictures of it, sadly. And with the bottom timing cover on, no way to get a picture.

*After.

Thanks Bryan you can ignore my voicemail. I went ahead and sent the email in. My order was originally placed on 12/12/17.