Issues with Supertech Viton valve seals?
 

Hey guys, quick question for a friend. I got my seals a few years ago and have 10,000 miles on them without issues. However he’s building an engine and reading some stories about people having problems with the same seals.

Did supertech quality go down, or maybe a production issue? I’m not sure if there’s really a problem or if there’s just a bunch of “me too” guys out there who may have other issues and are just blaming the seals.

Thabks everyone!

Any time you have someone on the interwebz post a problem it's highly likely to see lot's of "me too's" because now everyone with that problem that didn't bother to speak up, does.

IIRC we've had about a dozen people so far confirm theirs were leaking. I have personally seen it on a member's car with a 949 cnc head so you would assume they were installed correctly

I installed some in mid-2013. I'd assume I'm around 25k miles on them now without any issues. I didn't even realize they were a problem until I've seen a few threads pop up lately. Based on what others are saying I don't think I'd go the same route if I were to do it again, but I'm certainly thinking about fixing what isn't broken either.

Yeah I think it's hit-n-miss. If they were all bad we'd have a billion threads about it by now

#metoo #supertechvalveseals

My money is on the Viton seals being less tolerant of bad valve guides. We used Supertech seals for years and years in every motor, but the guides were always checked and replaced as needed. I never had any issues reported to me or experienced any issues myself.

Another anecdote - I bought a set from Fab9 and he stated that he's been selling them for years and has never heard of this problem. Could be a recent bad run of them.

I'm going to switch to the Supermiata before I install the supertechs set given the price vs. "pain in the ass to replace" aspect.

I also did googley search and found other cars were seeing a similar trend - but I'm certain you could find the same thing for basically any product on the planet.

Ray

Is there anyway to test the seals with the head off the car?

I*m not quit sure.
Maybe you can give air pressure or vavuum on one port with a foam pad and put some oil on the valve guide. But i think they leak during valve Movement.

Yah I didn’t think there was really a way to tell. I called a local shop a bit ago and they said the same...no test only signs like dirty valve under seal, smoke, etc...which we already know.

Is Greg Peters out there? He just posted a new video where he states that he's replacing his Supertech valve seals after only 1,500miles due to leaking.


What did he replace them with? Supermiata's stuff?

I think he mentioned that he went with stock seals. I have both a set of stock and supertech and will be using the factory ones

OEM would be my choice.

FS: BNIB Supertech Valve seals. $1.

Seems as though mine may be leaking as well, we will know for sure once we take off the turbo manifold and see how much oil is in the head but I have a spot of oil around cylinder 4 so I think they are toast. Going to try Car Passion Channel's method to replace them since that will save a few hours and a few bucks as well, and if that doesn't help then I will know the head has to come off and the guides are probably worn.

No doubt Savington has a point. I posted in another thread about my leaking ST seals. In my engine all the valve guides are within Mazda Specs, but they are at the high end of the tolerance. Maybe the combination of shit materials in the seals and loose guides caused my oil consumption. I'm replacing the seals with OEM and the guides as well.

Supertech has sold thousands of seals with good results. They make good quality products. However, the seals are probably made in China. Chinese manufacturers are notorious for substituting materials with no testing, to ensure similar performance, and certainly no mention of the substitution to the customer. Remember the Boundary Engineering front oil seal debacle?

http://usseal-eok.com/seals-by-size.html?stem_size=18

I have not ordered/compared to confirm, but they sure look similar. EOK is a Taiwanese company. I don't think it's a shit material as much as it is a seal designed to be fitted to a fresh valve guide, as opposed to an edge-of-tolerance used guide. You're trading high-temp properties for pliability.

I've got a brand new set of Supertechs from Fab9 (1 month ago) and a brand new set of the "Supermiata" seals (yesterday). I'm going to take careful measurements of some key surfaces and see if I can discern anything.

OK I've finally got some solid information. I have brand spanking new sets of BOTH the Supermiata seals (Felpro?) and a set from Fab9 (the Supertechs).

The results are very obvious. Using a set of gage pins to inspect diameters:
The Supertechs are .010" larger in every dimension.

Description of measurements:
"Inside diameter" is the largest gage pin that fits with nearly zero friction
"Easy to slide" is the gage pin size that fits (with oil) and is "easy to slide" up and down. Very subjective, but I think informative
"Larger inside diameter" is the second lip that fits over the valve guide.

Those Supertechs don't belong on this car. I put the Supertech on the valve stem and you can axially move the body and see daylight between the stem and the seal. NO BUENO. The Supermiatas fit nicely and don't have any play.

For once, bigger is NOT better! Someone tell my wife!!

And Fab9 - You really must stop selling these things.

Fudge i got my head rebuilt with those...

And one more very valuable piece of information. You should install the seals and then install the valves ONCE. The valve stem has a very sharp tail edge that shreds the valve guide inner surface when you pull the stem out of the seal. When pushing the valve in it is OK, it is when you remove the valve that it catches the seal rubber and can damage it.

So if you think you will install the seals, the install the valves (and everything else), then check your lash, pull out the valves and grind the stem length down and re-install - BAD. You just damaged those new Supermiata seals. Ask how I just found out...

Of note - the Supertech seals DO NOT get damaged when pulling on and off the stem, because they are too big anyway!

I'm probably going to grind that sharp edge off of my stems so I don't damage the seals ever.

Props for the measurements.

Would you be willing to measure the Miataroadster seals if I had an order shipped to you? My engine is going in next month and I'd like to see the measurements for those while I still have the engine out.

MR-VVSS-16 - MiataRoadster Viton valve stem seals - MiataRoadster - High-performance service...and parts for Mazda Miata Roadsters

So just for clarrification, 949Racing states their valve seals come from the, "Same supplier as Mahle, Clevite, Fel-Pro, others," but are Viton instead of rubber (like OEM and Fel-Pro SS72802 replacement valve seals)

If plenty of folks are having successes with good old fashioned rubber OEM/Fel-Pro, why is the push for Viton? Will it actually last longer or is there still a game of getting the tolerances just right before one see's any benefit at all.

Here's a good article on valve guides & seals, Valve Stem Seals Materials and Designs . After following all the 'troubles' of the Supertech seals the common factor seems to be a lack of information about stem to guide runout or real world valve guide wear and ovality. I had my head rebuilt by a local builder who checked the valve guide diameters vs the valve stems with bore gauges while going through the process. He said they were within the Mazda tech spec [it was a fairly low mileage head] so I had him use the Supertech seals as 1. I had them on hand and 2. It's what he uses generally. During our conversations he also showed me how to install them using the 'straw method' so the seals don't get cut.

Another PDF file from SKF on the subject of valve guide seals with some relevant information, Valve stem seals - SKF

Unfortunately, the engines still on the stand waiting for warmer weather. I've thought of pulling the head off and replacing the seals but likely will not.

Looking at the dimensional information that Mudflap measured, both mfg seals are well under the minimum stem diameter. A question would be "what's appropriate"? There's supposed to be a certain amount of oil on the stems as they go into the guides to keep wear down. Reading through different material says there's as much into the contour of the seal lip that determines how much oil is metered than plain dimensional attributes.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7b5997117a.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d79455bca0.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2372c463b0.jpg

Thanks for the information. I've run into the case where my car puffs from dead stops or long idles with the head having had all valve guides replaced using Supertech. This table pre-emptively answered my questions about the difference in valve stem diameters between stock and advertised values given by Supertech, however, I can only offer anecdotal gripes from a performance shop that built my latest head/shelf ornament said they had nothing but trouble using Supertech components. The valve lengths would sometimes not be as advertised and raised general QC issues with supertech products in general.

At this rate, I'm just curious whether or not to move forward with the Supermiata Viton or run of the mill Fel-Pro rubber (which has many documented successes).

I'm not at all familiar with what Supertech actually manufacturers themselves [if anything] vs source. I doubt they produce their own seals given the wholesale selling price. Maybe one of the site vendors has more information.

Mudflap and I have been PM'ing a bit back and forth. I had a new seal set sent to him from MiataRoadster, the inside diameter measurement was provided - hopefully he can fill in the missing measurements.

Supertech Valve Seals (Viton) - Supertech Valve Seals for Mazda Miata
Inside Diameter .202
Easy to slide .215
Larger inside diameter .270

Supermiata Valve Seals (Viton) - https://supermiata.com/Supermiata--v...s-miata-1.aspx (Same supplier as Mahle, Clevite, Fel-Pro, others.) - does not imply same material.
Inside Diameter .191
Easy to slide .207
Larger inside diameter .260

MiataRoadster (Viton) - MR-VVSS-16 - MiataRoadster Viton valve stem seals - MiataRoadster - High-performance service...and parts for Mazda Miata Roadsters
Inside Diameter .198
Easy to slide .xxx
Larger inside diameter .xxx

I'm not sure we have the FelPro or OEM measurements.

I'm installing an engine this weekend and will have it running shortly thereafter - I'll update on the MiataRoadster seals once I have a few miles on the car.

I just hope it's not smoking up a storm while tuning

Meh, what's another couple of weeks of downtime?

OK, so although Summit Racing lists the material for Fel Pro valve stem seals as Rubber, Autozone (of all places) references it as FKM which is another word for Fluoroelastomer containing the same monomer as what is consistant with DuPont's trade name Viton.

Solid work

OK folks I've got three brands in my hands now. I wish I still had the OEMs (thrown away).

The measurements betwixt the three clearly show that the Supermiata (Felpro I believe) are superior. But the bottom line is the fit on the valve stem. All three require a little pushing to get them onto the valve stem. But the Supermiata takes more push than the other two. If you lightly push the seal body against the valve stem you can easily detect light between the valve stem and seal. Not so on the Supermiata.

It is too difficult to tell which ones slide up and down more readily. The problem is, once stopped, they require a minimum force to break the tension to get them moving. That force is too difficult for me to measure in any meaningful way.


Supertech Valve Seals (Viton) - Supertech Valve Seals for Mazda Miata
Inside Diameter .202
Very easy to push against the stem to see daylight (moon shaped gap).

MiataRoadster (Viton) - MR-VVSS-16 - MiataRoadster Viton valve stem seals - MiataRoadster - High-performance service...and parts for Mazda Miata Roadsters
Inside Diameter .198
Easy to push against the stem to see daylight (moon shaped gap).

Supermiata Valve Seals (Viton) - https://supermiata.com/Supermiata--v...s-miata-1.aspx (Same supplier as Mahle, Clevite, Fel-Pro, others.) - does not imply same material.
Inside Diameter .191
Requires more force to push against the stem to see daylight (thin gap).

Do you have the felpro ones to compare with as well? Curious how the Supermiata ones look compared to those. Or do we expect them to be exactly the same? Same supplier doesn't necessarily mean same spec right? I know you pointed out that it didn't necessarily mean that the material doesn't have to be the same either.

If anyone out there has a positively identified OEM and/or Felpro I'd be happy to do a direct comparison and report.

I'll have this head apart for at least a few more weeks. Hopefully not longer!

I think I posted this in one of the other threads maybe not. US Seal is a large supplier to OEMs (they don't sell to the public). Here's the 2 seals they supply for the BP engine ( 2 materials) to other companies and you can look at dimensional information (not toleranced btw) and also car model cross-reference.

1998-02 DOHC L4 16V "BP"

And theoretically, all the positive seal 6mm X .43X metal body seals that could apply and fit onto the guide. The guide profile that the seals fit onto is different from OEM to OEM so use caution when using this list.

SEALS BY SIZE - 6mm X .430-.439, Metal body with rubber inside skirt

I ordered one of each to send to Mudflap. They did sell to the public over the phone. :)

If these are truly OEM, they're significantly cheaper than buying from Mazda. They were .50 and .81 each, plus reasonable shipping fees (I didn't get an actual price, but she said around $2.50 to ship)

Someone else is gonna have to get the FelPros to you, haha.

I guess there's no shame where an order is concerned...

I'm doing a rebuild on a VVT head and ordered the MR bronze guides+seals set. I'll have at least a few weeks before the head is assembled with new seals so I'm interested to see what this thread comes up with.

For what it's worth, I had my 99 head rebuilt in 2013 with bronze guides and viton seals and have not had any burning oil or leaking. I believe they were Supertech seals, but cannot say with certainty.

I borked a felpro installing new seals, and had to buy a whole new kit. I can donate a felpro to the cause. PM me & I can mail it to you

OK! I've finished a fairly exhaustive test to evaluate these valve seals. Somehow I've ended up with 7 different seals to test.

I decided to make up some kind of test in order to evaluate actual performance. Measuring the various dimensions is all well and good. But due to the spring, material type and shape/form of the lip, I can't positively establish which is really any better/worse.

So I made up a way to mount each valve seal as mounted on a valve stem. Then I'd simply add weight until the grip on the stem is lost.
Now all of these basically have a 'slip point' at which they whip right out. So I tried to very carefully measure that point. Using engine oil for lube, I put these on and gave them a chance to fall (over and over) in order to establish a repeatable measurement. In most cases I tested 3-5 samples. Unfortunately, some of these only had one or two samples to test (US Seal EOK, Felpro)

http://i66.tinypic.com/25throj.jpg

The results make perfect sense. Something we already know: DON'T INSTALL SUPERTECH VALVE SEALS.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2z6tcg2.jpg

Overall winner? A seal that I don't even have a new one to test. OEM. I'm going to guess that the seals on this motor are fairly well used. But I have no idea.

The Supermiata are great. Really tight fit and strongest grip overall.

Great work, man. I feel better about the MR seals in mine now.

I showed my son the hot wheels track - we're gonna be including tunnels now. :)

Way to science the crap out of it. Props awarded.

A couple more points.

1. The stem was .2354" from a 2004 MSM. I did the measurements and test near the tip, where no use/wear is present.
2. All results are only indicative of holding power and do not necessarily reflect performance during use (heat, moving, vibration, lubrication).
3. I believe Shibby shipped me both the MR and the US Seals - Thanks!
4. Thank you to Wackbards for the Felpros.
5. The Lamborghini won. Photo finish.

This was all tested with the same valve, dry?

So...
My head is at a shop that builds a lot of non miata heads (toyota, subaru, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Porsche etc).

I've let them know about the Supertech stuff, and as previously mentioned they have also had issues with Supertech themselves which is why the go with Ferrea stuff. But what I found interesting in the message below, although perhaps hearsay, is that Supertech mislabeled their product.
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https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d1345d0612.jpg



Now I did some digging and found this document:
https://www.supertechperformance.com..._Inner-WEB.pdf


In that document I was able to find the following values for valve stem diameters of their products

Miata BP 1.8 - vlave seal p/n VS-T6I/E
5.97mm( intake)
5.94mm (Exhaust)


EJ20/25 WRX Sti- valve seal p/n VS-TS6I/E
5.96mm (intake)
5.96mm (exhaust)

Could subaru seals work despite their more compact form? I know we just settled that OEM and Supermiata are definite replacement options, I just want to see if there's any downside other than shelling out funds for another set for one torn seal when the shop uses Subaru valves on the regular.


Subie valve seal on my VVT head

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...bb2bf242ee.jpg



Supermiata (brown) vs replacement Subie (blue) valve seal
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8d14b19955.jpg



Any subie people on the forum have some seals to send in for science? I should just probably fork up the $30 for the supermiata ones, but just fodder for thought.

Make sure you understand that I never really stated "smaller is better". You want the correct size. Which I can nearly guarantee is the OEM dimensions. Under heat, pressure (due to our overstressed PCV systems), and RPM, these little seals do a remarkable job.

Too tight (small) and they will tear themselves apart with the additional friction. They'll work at first and then not so much...

Props to Mudflap for testing and measuring the seals. Psyber Optix, how come you don't want to use genuine Mazda ones? Are they crazy expensive? I've also had a bunch of Subarus and I always use genuine factory parts unless there's a big benefit to using an aftermarket item.

Is there a detriment to worrying about 0.01mm (0.0004") in diameter difference given how much variation all these valve seals have for a spec'd application?

If it it snaps onto the valve guide, and fits the valve stem, is it still possible for it to work?

I don't believe that the actual diameter tells much of a story. Only if it is WAY off. If I look closely under a 30x microscope - I can see slight shape differences between the various seals. Also, the viton itself could be of various unknown grades. So really the bottom line would be people installing (PROPERLY!!) and saying, "Hey these [insert seal here]'s suck donkey balls" if they don't function well (or for long).

Do you have any Kia seals you can send to mudflap for science? That might be the best option if it's a factory part for a reasonable price.

Mazda Seals