JE vs Wiesco vs Eagle vs Carrillo, brand name vs cheap parts strength...?
 

So, I'm having some fun hear tearing through the different combinations of rods, pistons, A-beam vs H-beam vs I-beam vs X-beam, and all the brand name's vs the likely Tiawanese/chinese replica's, and or original products simply made overseas.

As well as Some brands like Supertech whom, well, I don't know what to make out of.

Kinda watched the Supertech piston Gb come and go just due to my own insecurities with what to get. Not going to get into comp ratio/overbore issues here, but I was wondering if anyone has some solid evidence/testing on any of the brand name rods vs. not-so-brand name rods, and pistons for that matter.

I've been considering bringing in a set of Carrillo A-beams and grabbing 1 Eagle or Supertech or Etc Rod and checking out grain structure, and been wondering where I can maybe get a destruction test done on a cheaper H (at >400$ a set it might be a worthwhile endeavor!)

Either way, long-winded stream of consciousness aside, a Who's running what with how much power on how many miles would always be helpful.

Currently, I'm leaning toward Carrillo A's and Wiesco 9:1's for 270 dd whp forever, but I'd like to see real world support too.

I've heard good things about Wiseco's

Well, bummer. Kinda was hoping some more people would having interesting/technical info to add... oh well.

I have decided to do the testing myself instead, cause I'm rather bored.
I spoke with a few professors today, and we are getting some tests put together for a number of rods, initially. I may add the results for a few of the tests from the pistons I get. Likely the wiesco's.

Looks like we are going to start ASAP on my Carrillo A's and do a grain structure analysis, to help us make conjecture's at its build quality and strength. We will likely also give a composition analysis a shot as well.

Finally, we are going to use the Carrillo rod to create our jig for a set of rods in our hydraulic setup. I'm going to get my hands on either one or a set of ETD, Eagle, M-tuned, and etc rods, and we are going to do the grain structure, composition, and then destruction tests. Then figure out the yield point on each of the cheaper rods, and compare this to the Carrillo's two test results, without destroying the Carrillo, and analyze the results.

I'll have more info as I work out the plans more tomorrow. I'm taking my set of Carrillo A's with me to the lab tomorrow morning.

As for pistons, I have always used JE's They have been in most of the hot rod motors I have had. They will build you anything you want.

I really don't see the point. All of the parts listed are proven to support more power than you will ever make in your b6/bp motor.

CAT rods and Supertech 8.6:1 pistons. I've done a track event at 300+whp/wtq and several at 225-250 and I have no complaints. Gay thread though.

One of the few times we agree on something. Take a ss and frame it.

Gay thread..? He's testing the material properties of the different internals we have to choose from. What's even better he is doing it purely for the fun. Maybe the geek content is just giving me a hard on, but I will happily say that I appreciate what your doing. I'm going to need to find something similar to do in one of my final engineering classes next semester.
Carry on..

Michael

Appreciate it. Lets just eat all the bullshit marketing companies can sell us and say that ETD rods are great for 600hp in our motor because they did 600hp in some motor, somewhere, with an unknown number of cylinders/displacement...

Or, even, that Carrillo rods are worth $1000 a set when we can get a set for $3-400 with similar or near identical construction.

Eh, but hey, I almost see your point. You are correct, even in the fact I could likely, no, I could make 270hp with what I got. Of course, as we all likely know, you can make a ton of power, and at a certain point longevity can go out the window. I'd really like to build a motor with a good amount of power that has internals that will have longevity of stock or near stock with the power I'm putting down reliable and everyday.

However, again, you likely have a point in that the information, save the grain structure and composition analysis will be useless, to me. I'm going to do it anyway though, because for the most part it is easy, and I've already got a few teachers rev'd up about it.

I've done more searching and poking, and I'd like the compression-destruction test to include a B6/Bp stock rod, a FE-dohc rod, and maybe 3-4 etd/cat/eagle/m-tune rods as well. My conjecture is that comparing the Grain structure results with the destroyed rods and the one Carrillo I won't crush will give me enough information to make an informed conclusion as to its capabilities.

If all goes well, at least we will polish and test a Carrillo tomorrow.

Oh, and I'm throwing in an Alamo FE-dohc rod in as well. Its another Ching-chong Meow rod as well.

Subscribing to thread:D

You do realize that your rod and piston choice won't be the limiting factor on longevity. It'll be your rings. Any aftermarket rod or piston combo will last indefinitely assuming a good tune. That doesn't mean you'll keep good compression and/or not get a bunch of blowby pushing a ton of boost through your BP (or B6).

My Crower/Ross combo from 1996 is still running after considerable amount of abuse as far as I know, but I'm not sure how the compression and leakdown numbers are on the motor.

Frank

Not a gay thread at all.

I've spoken to 3 different engine builders so far, getting ready for my build.

One guy I spoke to who builds primarily V8s for circle track and drag cars said specifically to stay away from Eagle rods because he has seen issues with them during magnaflux testing, and has seen variances in their machining. He said Carillos have always been 100%. He also mentioned Crower as another very high quality alternative, as well as Scat, although there doesn't appear to be an ots Scat for the BP/B6.

On the other hand, I spoke to another builder who has vast import experience, Honda, Nissan, some Mazda and Toyota. He says even on his high-horsepower Honda drag builds, 75% use Eagle, and has had no issues with them at all.

Again, all this may be pointlessly academic, since we are not looking to put huge loads on these rods. But, if you are going through the time, trouble, and expense, one train of thought may be to go the extra few hundred for the top shelf. I am in for results.

Of course, people should always buy the best parts money can buy...so why not put BME's in a motor with exhaust ports the size of my thumb? I better use of the additional $1400 to run Carrillo and Ross would probably justify swapping in a real engine like an S2k, motorcycle engine, or V8.

there was a post on clubprotege.com about the cat,mtuned,bel-fab rods having probleds fitting in the wrist pin and that they had to be machined. so i would check the size in that area. im in the same boat i have the money to buy some pistons and rods but im not sure what i want to buy. im also curious to about the pistons, flyin miata says there pistons are custom made to there specs for the bp's im wondering if this is true or just marketing b.s.

FM's wiesco's are a bit different, but not by a ton, If I remember right something about the coatings and provisions for the oil squirters... you can always ask them.

IMO, I'd go for the rod/piston set off of ebay with the Wiescos for about 760 or so, and sell the rods if you don't want them.

Ok, I hear you there hustler, but that's not what I'm saying. What I really want to find out with this endeavor is basically, What does that extra coin actually net you?

I'm going to start out with the Yield points of different rod combos and evaluate the construction, and go from there.

Still debating on what to do with pistons. Likely no destruction tests as I see little point on the pistons. Feel free to chip in helpfull advice. Notice, I spelt advice right. Go me..

But you mis-spelled "helpful". :D

Seriously though, are you planning to actually do destructive testing on these rods? If so, then there is much awesomeness here. I'd suggest that the rods should be tested not only in compression, but in tension as well, as this is suspected to be a common contributor to rod failure, by way of inertial stress.

Ideally, the latter should ideally be done in such a way that data is produced both for the main body of the rod as well as for the assembly of the rod and cap using the provided bolts. IOW, do the bolts or cap deform in tension before the rod does?

This has potential to be very very informative.

To more fully answer the question of "what the does extra coin get you," consider placing the various sets of rods in a CMM to assess machining variation and accuracy.

Second JP's suggestion to test the rods as an assembly, in addition to the 'coupon' testing.

Those are both interesting points.

I was talking with the guy who runs our machine shop yesterday about the testing and we were mocking up what we would need to do the compression test in our machine, and he mentioned tension testing.

I was under the impression that early detonation was the main killer of rods, where you have a force pushing down the piston/rod against the crank and the crank is at an angle such that it has no give, there for you are crushing the rod/piston against the crank, I guess. This was the main reason I chose to do compression.

What would the tension be involved in as far as rods coming apart? I just can't visualize its effect, not negating that it couldn't happen, I just don't see it.

Also, the test we mocked up doesn't have the caps on for compression, but we can do a tension test with caps/bolts fully torqued.

As far as whole sets, I can see what I can do, but that begins to cost a good bit. I will do the full set of Carrillo's for their consistency though.

Tension is produced when the engine spins at higher rpms. The loads are much higher at 10,000 rpm than at 6,200 rpm. Motors with gigantic cams, monster cylinder heads, ultra light weight cranks, and flywheels experience this type of failure.

Missed shift over revving = tension stretching = piston hits head = great sadness.

What SixShooter and miata2fast said.

There's an excellent section in Corky's book which discusses the effect of inertial load on the rod and piston. The short version is that the inertial loads to which the rod is subjected to at high RPM can actually be greater in both the tensile and compressive states than the compressive load which is imposed on it by the combustion process.


To more directly answer your question, think about the upper half of the exhaust cycle. At the point where it crosses through 90° BTDC, the piston begins to rapidly decelerate and then at TDC it reverses direction and begins accelerating towards BDC on the intake cycle. During this time, the rod is under tension.


Of course, sometimes the rod is subjected to both compressive and tensile stress at the same time. Physics is a bitter mistress...


I don't think it matters for the compressive test. From my perspective, it would seem that load is all borne upon the main portion of the journal. I'm not an ME though.

Did more digging today, it is going to take a bit of time to get these tests setup.

All the collaborators have been contacted and we are working together now to get things rolling. I'm no ME either Joe, not yet and not for a while, and I'll be acting as the student researcher. Today, I contacted a number of Different rod companies, and had great fun tracking down who makes what for who. Unfortunately, I did make some promises not to list the manufacturer of a number of rods we buy with names on them. I will leave that up to 'you' if you want to know.

As well, myself and Shannon, the career machinist at our school, got our last person in on this test, Andrew, a 25-year automotive engineer who formerly worked for Dodge's SRT division and alluded to his works on the Viper ACR and race teams... needless to say the introduction of about 2 hours today consisted of a lot of automotive theory from crank scrapers and dry-sumps to Mean effective pressures and combustion forces vs. Rpm, as joe stated.

We are working on formulating a series of tests, currently, with Andrew's expert input, we are considering the following:
-Initial magnafluxing for imperfections
-Brinell harness test
-Grain structure analysis
-Composition analysis
We will then, after this first battery of tests, well, actually, I will... create a to scale computer model of every rod design in order to determine the stress points under load.
We will then section off each rod into an undetermined number of sections and conduct tensile testing on each section, and compare results.

So far, I have Carrillo rods, M-Tuned Rods, and 949's rods they supply as well, on my list.
Thus far, I have determined a few key points, but I'm withholding these until I can compile everything in a proper report. I was able to speak with representatives from Carrillo and 949's supplier in-depth today, and I gotta say, the fella who supplies 949 seems to be a very stand-up fella, and was very forthright in any info I requested. I must say I have a better feeling about that product today than I did a week ago.

I'll be speaking with Carrillo's QC manager at a later time, as well as a few of the engineering staff at the other firm at a later time.

That is all I have for today, This appears as though it will take a good deal of time, but I'll try to keep my posts few with more technical data from here on out. Thanks for the interest all.

Any update at all ?
As someone mentioned: the strength of the bottum of the Mazda engine is strong enough to take most abuse.
Since my powergoal is quite moderate I am NOT interested in strenght (as long as it is good enough). I am interested in getting the weight down. I am also on a budget build so I would look for the Eagle rods. But are they much lighter then stock, is it worth the swap ? I took my engine appart to check it's condition (bought the car with a broken engine, now got another one from the junk and had to check it over), so if I wan't to do the swap, I can do it now. But would I bennifit other then get my wallet a bit lighter ?

See my answer to your other post. This testing they speak of will take some time and they have not yet started.

Ok, But I do like to know: do the rods save any weight ? I know they do on Volvo's.

This is an interesting thread. I would love to see the results. I won't be building anything extremely powerful, but it will be good info. I'm sure the data will help a forum member make a decision on what brand they buy, on of these days, if they actually do a forum search.

You can buy a kit for $1200. With all the goodies inside. Bearings, pistons, gasket, rods. I have a fucked engine and one that is opened up for inspection from the junkyard. IF i'd like to do to it, I have to do it now (not as in this minute but the comming months).
I do beleve they are stronger then stock, but will it get the weight down of the moving parts ? I have a piston and rod pulled out of the engine and they are not that heavy...

Any plan to do fatigue testing? Small-end or big-end?

It would only take 10-20 rods of each type and access to some super expensive equipment to a good S-N curve for each type of rod.

That would be some useful info...

Any updates or ETA for results?

Subscribed. I remember seeing something once (this was for a turbo kawasaki) that said the stress on the rods at full tilt was more than the that of running 18 psi at full power. And that's taking a motor designed for 74 hp and putting 250 through it.

As far as real advice, rods in a miata are big, pistons you can skip, I think. Once I went to good rods in my motor, I never really had issues. Perhaps the issues are different with the 1.6.

Found the section in Corky's book that I was looking for. Hopefully he won't mind my reproducing a small excerpt from it here.


Now, the relative magnitudes of the two curves will vary with engine design. A big diesel engine running high boost at low RPM might well produce a greater compressive power load than either inertial load. A gasoline engine running at high RPM, OTOH, will look much more like the chart.

The last two sentences are interesting, as Corky makes the argument that tensile stress is the real killer, and that compressive stress (especially that resulting from combustion pressure rather than inertial force) pales by comparison.

A big diesel has big lumpy pistons. So I actualy think the same rules apply.

But all the bad rods I have seen are bent. Some turbo engines are known to produce wobbly rods when too much torque is produced at low rpm..

The bent rods on MT had waterinjection. So they may be the result of an liquid-lock.. But all 4 doesn't make sense.

Posit: Tensile stress (a product of high RPM operation) causes fatigue. This reduces the strength of the rods, and thus their ability to resist compressive loading. In a naturally-aspirated engine, compressive power loading is not sufficient to lead to deformation. However, in a turbocharged environment where both BMEP and peak cylinder pressure are several times greater, the weakened rods eventually yield and undergo inelastic deformation.

Just a theory.

Doubtful. The quantity of water that we're shooting at the engine is pretty trivial, generally much less than the quantity of fuel. I can't think of any failure modes of the WI system (as typically employed) that would plausibly support a conclusion of liquid lock without leaving some very obvious evidence, such as part of the nozzle broken off and rattling around inside one of the chambers.

We're at a point in the lifecycle of the turbo Miata where there's a pretty solid body of evidence to support the conclusion that once a certain power threshold has been crossed, the probability of rod failure increases exponentially. What we don't have is a good explanation of why this occurs, or any empirical evidence to differentiate the relative performance of one aftermarket rod from another.

These are interesting times, indeed.


Nor I. Never took thermo, properties of materials, or dynamics. I just like learning about new things, particularly in an environment rife with speculation and uncertainty.

Likely knock/preignition - there's not enough leverage to move the piston/car out of the way, and plenty of peak pressure and bam, there goes a rod.

What's the dead volume in the engine? Pretty high. 2 liter / 4 = 500 cc @ 10 to 1 compression that's 20 CC's before you'd have an issue. Quite a bit of water, imagine how long your WI tank would last at 20 CC's per ignition event.

I've bent 2-3 rods at a go, and it was because I wasn't fueling and didn't pull timing.

Yessir. Forces are going at LEAST as the square of the RPM, so the jump from 6000 to 7000 is 36% more load. 8,000 rpm is 70% more load than 6,000. So, people making big power always go for "a few more revs", but they have no idea how much more stress that makes over just running more boost and better low end breathing.

I'm guilty of liking this approach myself. Sure, you get power linear with flat torque, but that's a hard thing to accomplish at some point.

Ah! Here is the answer that actually means something! It's that last bit that is important.

One thing I'd say we do know - pistons are an issue way before rods are. Not a lot of people with rods and no pistons have issues, so the smart money is rods then put more cash into known weak points.

Did you mean "Rods become an issue way before pistons are" ? Either way, That's what I have figured by reading what others have posted.

Sorry for all the curious minds, no deadline or ETA on the project yet. I have just basically gotten familiar with the equipment we need to use, and we did some hardness tests on the Carrillo's only. Still need to get some of the other aftermarket sets, and factory sets.

Read through all the comments, and I was going to mention I am more thoroughly convinced by Mr. B that tensile testing is the significant factor, despite boost pressure and the likes. He likes my theory on the exponential increase in gas expansion, basically, but still believes rpm is going to be the major stress on any motor exceeding 7200rpm, which a lot of people do with built motors and SEM, If I'm not mistaken.

I'm hoping to get this through before Christmas, but I honestly wouldn't hold my breathe.

In like Flynn.

Getting a very wide powerband is nice.. So reving it up is a good thing as long as you do not lose to much in the low revs.

So actualy there are more factors on engine failure (the rods):
1. Revs
2. Torque
3. Detonation or too much timing

I decided not to change my rods, but now I have to think it over as I like 2 of them and will dyno into the third..

Thanks about clearing the WI story.

500 grams for each rod was mentioned for the eagle rods, I still need to put my stock rod on a scale.

I agree...maybe even a FE3...

Subscribed.
I was talking to my local machinist about this today. He said that eagle rods and a few other manufactures forge the rods in China, and have them shipped here for final prep. He said Carrillo however does all of their work in the USofA. It would be interesting to see if Chairman Mao's steel has gotten better over the years.

They're steels seem to be okay, it's their machining that suck. My work gets tons of their forgings from China, that we machine here in the states. Any finished product (forged and machined) we buy from China turns out to be crap. They'll put their best machinist on the job for the prototype, we'll approve the part, and then they'll throw dozens of machinists getting paid $.1 an hour to mass produce, and they're crap. But forgings alone seem to be OKAY. Okay because USofA forgings seem to have slightly better strength, but the products my company makes doesn't need the little bit of extra strength, I'd like it for my rods though.

My buddy ordered a set of rods in from china to resell... I think the place that make's eagles... And he was pretty unhappy with them. They looked good, but there were issues. Still, it was issues on the ordering side.

Probably, yeah, the cheap carillos are good? Likely any serious aftermarket rod will be a bit lighter and a bit stronger and after that you're doing more than what you intend: The cheapest band-aid to make the car run really well.

The "Eagle's" are 500-525 gram. I am still interested if these rods are lighter over stock rods.

I would have my doubts that Eagles are lighter than stock. One of the reasons they are cheap, is that they are heavy. They always have had the reputation of having heavy parts.

I forget what my H-beams were. Damned light, though. Maybe 425? They came matched within like 0.5 grms or something.

FYI, you can lighten the factory rods by bending them slightly:
http://abefm.smugmug.com/Miata/Modif...06_mguZB-L.jpg
It also gives you lower compression, which is good for boost and long term survivability.

I don't even run rods. They're just dead weight.

i was hoping to get eagle rods now your all talking trash about them grrr. im so confused to many options and such a big price range ebay 215-1100 buxs i just want something in between and if eagle rods= cat, belfab ect ill just buy the cats

I'd go with eagle/belfab, if it were me..

um, just sayin.

Don't get me wrong, Eagles are not too bad, they are just not as good as the high dollar stuff. If you are on a budget, you will have to make some compromises. It costs money to go with the trick ultra light parts, but Eagles will keep you in the game if you are short on cash.

i dont understand why people get so hung up on things like rod weight, especially for a street car. my GTR rods are pretty damn heavy, and my compression is LOW (8.2:1) but i still have 20+ psi before 4k. i cant find my most recent dyno plot at the moment, but even 2 years ago at ~16-18psi i had 260 ft lbs by 4k, 268 peak.

/rant

i'd love to see how the GTR rods hold up to these tests, but at this point they are getting hard to find and more expensive than the cheap H-beams... making it a little irrelevant lol.

As an engine with light internals is very rev-happy if well balanced. It also reduces the stress on the internals but it is fun to drive an engine that runs at 7000 RPM and seems to shout to you: "Hey, hit the 8000, I like it!" rather then giving you the idea it would break.

I have allways had big engines that were good in torque but hated to rev up. Now I have a small 1.6 and the least I wan't from it is to behave like a small, well balanced, quick and revy engine. Like it should be.

Absolutely A#1. You can do an aweful lot by looking at the weakest points and fixing them.

Weak point #1: No turbo
Weak point #2: Turbo bends rods

Are you going to say that the rod weight is the 3rd worst thing about the entire car? Put the money in suspension, engine managment, headwork, cooling, chasis stiffening... All those will help a LOT. Also, a light flywheel might be another good way to go


Interestingly, more resistance to the motor spinning up will get you more boost at an earlier RPM (when do you get full boost in 5th gear? I see it well below 3500. On my motorcycle I just can't hit even half boost in first.)

Again, why put something ok for expensive? Find what's cheap and will do the job and use it. You know stock is bad. Now, price out some wining combinations: Rods + pistons, Rods + flywheel, Rods + subframe brace, rods + headwork, etc... What are you giving up for 75 grams? I'd take 12 lbs off the flywheel before I'd take 300 grams off four rods for feel. And if I wanted performance, I'd get the strongest thing I good and put the rest of the money into dyno time.

You can do an aweful lot by looking at the weakest points and fixing them.

Check.

Put money on:
suspension --> Thinking about a Koni sportkit as it is cheap and I like the Yellows on my Volvo 242GT Turbo.
engine managment --> I have some in stock, running a tuning company, headwork --> Hmmm....
cooling --> Re-route ?
chasis stiffening --> have to get it on the road first....
a light flywheel might be another good way to go --> Yup, 11lbs 1.8 clutch
put the rest of the money into dyno time --> just have to finish building my own chassis dyno out of an old Hoffmann Dynatest. Ready before the car is !

Seems like I am halfway there. But.... This was about rods... Interesting topic for sure !

i love my konis. I've heard lots of stories, but the konis are amazing. All my passangers cringe when they see a bump coming. But, you'll want stiff stiff springs. 750/500 and it's just enough. and you need race spec or better shocks to handle it. Adds up.
Headwork is tough again to decide where the line is.
Cooling: Radiator #1, Fans #2, Oil Cooler #3.... wait... DUCTING #0 (but do it after the rad or you'll have to redo it). reroutes... I dunno. People like it, but I don't see a lot of data.

Chasis stiffening is amazing, not too expensive, weighs a bit.

Do I get free dyno time for being so helpful?

As far as the rods go, You guys are somewhat spot on.

The cheaper ones of course have some corners cut. What kind of corners, you might ask? Well, the corners they cut are the difference between and engineer sitting down and saying "What is the absolute best balance of strength/weight/material etc? Ok, we are pulling out all the stops in design"
And the other guys saying "Ok, where can I get the biggest benefit while keeping the cost down, and what gains will cost a lot but give minimal return?"

If you look at a set of carrillo's or pauter's vs the others, you'll see chamfers on the edges of the rod, to save weight. look at a carrillo's inner grove on the h's and you'll see some incredibly complicated math going on, where they, from what I can figure, did a lot of work to determine the absolute best angle for all the junctions there.

When you look at a Belfab/Eagle/ETD/M-tuned/other rod, you'll see a decent product, though. Ok, less chamfering/rounds, less complex geometry, etc. But, they have the meat in the key places you need it, the Metals they use are just fine, and the design is Far and Above what stock offers you.

In my opinion, after I can make more conjectures about the internal construction and strength, there is nothing wrong with most of them. This is the thing in industry, you can either do what you want to do, or do what is feasible as far as cost goes. The latter companies chose this last route. Companies like Carrillo, Pauter, etc, go all out in the engineering process, or close to it, because there are people out there who run 1500hp LS1/Mod motor'd drag cars, and people who run 600-700hp 4cyl Drift cars, who will pay for it.

Do you need all that for a daily driver, a 300hp track car, or a street/strip type of setup? Maybe, but I doubt it.

More technical ramblings will come, I still need to round up all our contenders. I'm trying to work with the X-ray company here locally to see if they will bzaaap my test subjects first thing, but they are, um, difficult.

You're talking about the B6T rods from the 323, right? If I can find a set cheap, I'd do it. Can always use a bit of friendly help, if you see anything, tell me.

the b6t rods are about halfway between a stock BP rod and the GTR rods. the rods i'm talking about are from the 323 GTR, sometimes called the "BP-D". lets see if i can find a comparison shot.... there we go.

GTR / BP / B6T
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8...dbptb6t3aj.jpg

they are nearly impossible to get your hands on brand new, so i'm not sure you'd even be able to find a suitible sample for testing...

I should ask my friend about his china rods - I think he DID xray them. Someday I'll remember...

I like when people say "China" rods.

Its tough to actually, 100% determine if a product is "chinese," part chinese, or whatever.

You'll find, and this is with many manufacturing industries, that often, the metal, that is, the raw forgings, ingots, or, basically, big freaking hunks of steel, are almost never American made, because of the massive cost. The more metal, the more you'd save, and its pretty easy to make Chinese metal and overseas freight cheaper than American forged metal.

So, there's the first thing. A very slight few companies still get their metal ingots from US foundries, one is Carrillo. They won't even tell you who/where, but it is Timken steel that supplies them.

So, the others, well, some purposely get their metal from china, because its cheaper. For some reason, everyone usually focuses on China/Tiawan vs. US products, but hey, guess what, other countries have foundries too. So, a few other companies shop around, going for a bit better quality from countries in South America, Africa, from the country of Japan, etc.

Ok, you've got raw material, now what? The majority of the rod makers bring it over, and get all the testing and machining done here. In my mind, this isn't too terrible, as long as they have strict testing and heat treating protocols for the ingots, before ever touched by a cnc/lathe or what have you.

Now, the thing you want to watch out for, is a company who gets the steel from China, gets the testing done in China, and gets the rod Made, yes, in China. There is also another just about no-name company who had rods made by a company in South Africa I'm testing. They outsourced 100% production to this company, who then did their own shopping around, and I can't trace it, since they went under. This is the one I'm really interested in.

But, even the China made rods can sometimes be decent. I would never run them though, too much variation in grain structure and tensile strength, wide spread on Birnell scale, even in a run of 10. Scary in my opinion, to run that stuff at 7000rpms.

Yeah - he got these from china, like, they shipped in a box with chinese stamps all over them. :-) Supposedly it's where eagle gets them from, though they do their treating after the chinese machining? Who knows, it's pretty much a guess.

The only thing I've really heard to stay away from is indian - but again, it's rumor. Yes, I've gotten crap stuff from there, but it was super cheap.

I'd say I have heard LOTS of people with issues on stock rods, and very few with issues on aftermarket rods - get some "mid range" company's rods and stop worrying. :-)

Or, wait for a super killer deal on used H-beams like I got. Heck yeah, carillo all the way when it's $400.

Here's a highly theoretical analsys of that picture and the rods in it:

BP and B6T rods will suffer similar failure rates in a turbocharged motor. The 2001 motor I pulled had four bent rods. some bent in the plane of the rod, some bent perpendicular to it. If you know anything about resistance to bending, you'd see that there's no significant difference betwen them for out-of-plane bending (the top and bottom of a capital "I" are roughly the same thickness and width). Similarly, the height of the capital I only appears to be larger from 1/3 of the way from the small end to the large end. That might help some, but who cares if you still have other failure modes?

the GTR rods on the other hand appear to have SLIGHTLY thicker beams (I-I vs. I-I). That does help with resisting out of plane bending. It's also got a wider web which helps a ton with in plane bending. I--I vs. I-I.

so you have: I--I, I-I, and I-I/I--I respectively.

And I dont think the latter two are worth your time in a turbo motor.

thanks for that... everything you said makes sense to me. i'd love to get a comparison shot or some measurements of the rods flipped on edge. i'm wondering if the GTR rods are actually thicker in the beam section too. to continue your analogy, something like I--I vs I-I. unless thats what you meant and i misunderstood you, it seemed you were talking about the thickness of the I, left to right in the photo.