JE vs Wiesco vs Eagle vs Carrillo, brand name vs cheap parts strength...? - Page 3 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 11-14-2009, 01:22 AM   #41
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My buddy ordered a set of rods in from china to resell... I think the place that make's eagles... And he was pretty unhappy with them. They looked good, but there were issues. Still, it was issues on the ordering side.

Probably, yeah, the cheap carillos are good? Likely any serious aftermarket rod will be a bit lighter and a bit stronger and after that you're doing more than what you intend: The cheapest band-aid to make the car run really well.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:07 AM   #42
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The "Eagle's" are 500-525 gram. I am still interested if these rods are lighter over stock rods.
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:51 AM   #43
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I would have my doubts that Eagles are lighter than stock. One of the reasons they are cheap, is that they are heavy. They always have had the reputation of having heavy parts.
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Old 11-19-2009, 04:09 PM   #44
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I forget what my H-beams were. Damned light, though. Maybe 425? They came matched within like 0.5 grms or something.

FYI, you can lighten the factory rods by bending them slightly:

It also gives you lower compression, which is good for boost and long term survivability.
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:06 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
I forget what my H-beams were. Damned light, though. Maybe 425? They came matched within like 0.5 grms or something.

FYI, you can lighten the factory rods by bending them slightly:

It also gives you lower compression, which is good for boost and long term survivability.
I don't even run rods. They're just dead weight.
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Old 11-19-2009, 10:25 PM   #46
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i was hoping to get eagle rods now your all talking trash about them grrr. im so confused to many options and such a big price range ebay 215-1100 buxs i just want something in between and if eagle rods= cat, belfab ect ill just buy the cats
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Old 11-20-2009, 05:28 AM   #47
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I'd go with eagle/belfab, if it were me..

um, just sayin.
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:59 AM   #48
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Don't get me wrong, Eagles are not too bad, they are just not as good as the high dollar stuff. If you are on a budget, you will have to make some compromises. It costs money to go with the trick ultra light parts, but Eagles will keep you in the game if you are short on cash.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:09 AM   #49
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i dont understand why people get so hung up on things like rod weight, especially for a street car. my GTR rods are pretty damn heavy, and my compression is LOW (8.2:1) but i still have 20+ psi before 4k. i cant find my most recent dyno plot at the moment, but even 2 years ago at ~16-18psi i had 260 ft lbs by 4k, 268 peak.

/rant

i'd love to see how the GTR rods hold up to these tests, but at this point they are getting hard to find and more expensive than the cheap H-beams... making it a little irrelevant lol.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:42 AM   #50
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As an engine with light internals is very rev-happy if well balanced. It also reduces the stress on the internals but it is fun to drive an engine that runs at 7000 RPM and seems to shout to you: "Hey, hit the 8000, I like it!" rather then giving you the idea it would break.

I have allways had big engines that were good in torque but hated to rev up. Now I have a small 1.6 and the least I wan't from it is to behave like a small, well balanced, quick and revy engine. Like it should be.
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Old 11-20-2009, 04:52 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miata2fast View Post
Don't get me wrong, Eagles are not too bad, they are just not as good as the high dollar stuff. If you are on a budget, you will have to make some compromises. It costs money to go with the trick ultra light parts, but Eagles will keep you in the game if you are short on cash.
Absolutely A#1. You can do an aweful lot by looking at the weakest points and fixing them.

Weak point #1: No turbo
Weak point #2: Turbo bends rods

Are you going to say that the rod weight is the 3rd worst thing about the entire car? Put the money in suspension, engine managment, headwork, cooling, chasis stiffening... All those will help a LOT. Also, a light flywheel might be another good way to go


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i dont understand why people get so hung up on things like rod weight, especially for a street car. my GTR rods are pretty damn heavy, and my compression is LOW (8.2:1) but i still have 20+ psi before 4k. i cant find my most recent dyno plot at the moment, but even 2 years ago at ~16-18psi i had 260 ft lbs by 4k, 268 peak.

/rant

i'd love to see how the GTR rods hold up to these tests, but at this point they are getting hard to find and more expensive than the cheap H-beams... making it a little irrelevant lol.
Interestingly, more resistance to the motor spinning up will get you more boost at an earlier RPM (when do you get full boost in 5th gear? I see it well below 3500. On my motorcycle I just can't hit even half boost in first.)

Again, why put something ok for expensive? Find what's cheap and will do the job and use it. You know stock is bad. Now, price out some wining combinations: Rods + pistons, Rods + flywheel, Rods + subframe brace, rods + headwork, etc... What are you giving up for 75 grams? I'd take 12 lbs off the flywheel before I'd take 300 grams off four rods for feel. And if I wanted performance, I'd get the strongest thing I good and put the rest of the money into dyno time.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:31 PM   #52
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You can do an aweful lot by looking at the weakest points and fixing them.

Check.

Put money on:
suspension --> Thinking about a Koni sportkit as it is cheap and I like the Yellows on my Volvo 242GT Turbo.
engine managment --> I have some in stock, running a tuning company, headwork --> Hmmm....
cooling --> Re-route ?
chasis stiffening --> have to get it on the road first....
a light flywheel might be another good way to go --> Yup, 11lbs 1.8 clutch
put the rest of the money into dyno time --> just have to finish building my own chassis dyno out of an old Hoffmann Dynatest. Ready before the car is !

Seems like I am halfway there. But.... This was about rods... Interesting topic for sure !
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:37 PM   #53
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Quote:
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suspension --> Thinking about a Koni sportkit as it is cheap and I like the Yellows on my Volvo 242GT Turbo.
engine managment --> I have some in stock, running a tuning company, headwork --> Hmmm....
cooling --> Re-route ?
chasis stiffening --> have to get it on the road first....
a light flywheel might be another good way to go --> Yup, 11lbs 1.8 clutch
put the rest of the money into dyno time --> just have to finish building my own chassis dyno out of an old Hoffmann Dynatest. Ready before the car is !

Seems like I am halfway there. But.... This was about rods... Interesting topic for sure !
i love my konis. I've heard lots of stories, but the konis are amazing. All my passangers cringe when they see a bump coming. But, you'll want stiff stiff springs. 750/500 and it's just enough. and you need race spec or better shocks to handle it. Adds up.
Headwork is tough again to decide where the line is.
Cooling: Radiator #1, Fans #2, Oil Cooler #3.... wait... DUCTING #0 (but do it after the rad or you'll have to redo it). reroutes... I dunno. People like it, but I don't see a lot of data.

Chasis stiffening is amazing, not too expensive, weighs a bit.

Do I get free dyno time for being so helpful?
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:41 PM   #54
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As far as the rods go, You guys are somewhat spot on.

The cheaper ones of course have some corners cut. What kind of corners, you might ask? Well, the corners they cut are the difference between and engineer sitting down and saying "What is the absolute best balance of strength/weight/material etc? Ok, we are pulling out all the stops in design"
And the other guys saying "Ok, where can I get the biggest benefit while keeping the cost down, and what gains will cost a lot but give minimal return?"

If you look at a set of carrillo's or pauter's vs the others, you'll see chamfers on the edges of the rod, to save weight. look at a carrillo's inner grove on the h's and you'll see some incredibly complicated math going on, where they, from what I can figure, did a lot of work to determine the absolute best angle for all the junctions there.

When you look at a Belfab/Eagle/ETD/M-tuned/other rod, you'll see a decent product, though. Ok, less chamfering/rounds, less complex geometry, etc. But, they have the meat in the key places you need it, the Metals they use are just fine, and the design is Far and Above what stock offers you.

In my opinion, after I can make more conjectures about the internal construction and strength, there is nothing wrong with most of them. This is the thing in industry, you can either do what you want to do, or do what is feasible as far as cost goes. The latter companies chose this last route. Companies like Carrillo, Pauter, etc, go all out in the engineering process, or close to it, because there are people out there who run 1500hp LS1/Mod motor'd drag cars, and people who run 600-700hp 4cyl Drift cars, who will pay for it.

Do you need all that for a daily driver, a 300hp track car, or a street/strip type of setup? Maybe, but I doubt it.

More technical ramblings will come, I still need to round up all our contenders. I'm trying to work with the X-ray company here locally to see if they will bzaaap my test subjects first thing, but they are, um, difficult.

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i'd love to see how the GTR rods hold up to these tests, but at this point they are getting hard to find and more expensive than the cheap H-beams... making it a little irrelevant lol.
You're talking about the B6T rods from the 323, right? If I can find a set cheap, I'd do it. Can always use a bit of friendly help, if you see anything, tell me.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:54 PM   #55
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the b6t rods are about halfway between a stock BP rod and the GTR rods. the rods i'm talking about are from the 323 GTR, sometimes called the "BP-D". lets see if i can find a comparison shot.... there we go.

GTR / BP / B6T


they are nearly impossible to get your hands on brand new, so i'm not sure you'd even be able to find a suitible sample for testing...
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Old 11-20-2009, 11:51 PM   #56
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I should ask my friend about his china rods - I think he DID xray them. Someday I'll remember...
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:15 AM   #57
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I should ask my friend about his china rods - I think he DID xray them. Someday I'll remember...
I like when people say "China" rods.

Its tough to actually, 100% determine if a product is "chinese," part chinese, or whatever.

You'll find, and this is with many manufacturing industries, that often, the metal, that is, the raw forgings, ingots, or, basically, big freaking hunks of steel, are almost never American made, because of the massive cost. The more metal, the more you'd save, and its pretty easy to make Chinese metal and overseas freight cheaper than American forged metal.

So, there's the first thing. A very slight few companies still get their metal ingots from US foundries, one is Carrillo. They won't even tell you who/where, but it is Timken steel that supplies them.

So, the others, well, some purposely get their metal from china, because its cheaper. For some reason, everyone usually focuses on China/Tiawan vs. US products, but hey, guess what, other countries have foundries too. So, a few other companies shop around, going for a bit better quality from countries in South America, Africa, from the country of Japan, etc.

Ok, you've got raw material, now what? The majority of the rod makers bring it over, and get all the testing and machining done here. In my mind, this isn't too terrible, as long as they have strict testing and heat treating protocols for the ingots, before ever touched by a cnc/lathe or what have you.

Now, the thing you want to watch out for, is a company who gets the steel from China, gets the testing done in China, and gets the rod Made, yes, in China. There is also another just about no-name company who had rods made by a company in South Africa I'm testing. They outsourced 100% production to this company, who then did their own shopping around, and I can't trace it, since they went under. This is the one I'm really interested in.

But, even the China made rods can sometimes be decent. I would never run them though, too much variation in grain structure and tensile strength, wide spread on Birnell scale, even in a run of 10. Scary in my opinion, to run that stuff at 7000rpms.
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:42 AM   #58
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Yeah - he got these from china, like, they shipped in a box with chinese stamps all over them. :-) Supposedly it's where eagle gets them from, though they do their treating after the chinese machining? Who knows, it's pretty much a guess.

The only thing I've really heard to stay away from is indian - but again, it's rumor. Yes, I've gotten crap stuff from there, but it was super cheap.

I'd say I have heard LOTS of people with issues on stock rods, and very few with issues on aftermarket rods - get some "mid range" company's rods and stop worrying. :-)

Or, wait for a super killer deal on used H-beams like I got. Heck yeah, carillo all the way when it's $400.
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Old 11-21-2009, 11:53 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therieldeal View Post
the b6t rods are about halfway between a stock BP rod and the GTR rods. the rods i'm talking about are from the 323 GTR, sometimes called the "BP-D". lets see if i can find a comparison shot.... there we go.

GTR / BP / B6T


they are nearly impossible to get your hands on brand new, so i'm not sure you'd even be able to find a suitible sample for testing...
Here's a highly theoretical analsys of that picture and the rods in it:

BP and B6T rods will suffer similar failure rates in a turbocharged motor. The 2001 motor I pulled had four bent rods. some bent in the plane of the rod, some bent perpendicular to it. If you know anything about resistance to bending, you'd see that there's no significant difference betwen them for out-of-plane bending (the top and bottom of a capital "I" are roughly the same thickness and width). Similarly, the height of the capital I only appears to be larger from 1/3 of the way from the small end to the large end. That might help some, but who cares if you still have other failure modes?

the GTR rods on the other hand appear to have SLIGHTLY thicker beams (I-I vs. I-I). That does help with resisting out of plane bending. It's also got a wider web which helps a ton with in plane bending. I--I vs. I-I.

so you have: I--I, I-I, and I-I/I--I respectively.

And I dont think the latter two are worth your time in a turbo motor.
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Old 11-21-2009, 12:25 PM   #60
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thanks for that... everything you said makes sense to me. i'd love to get a comparison shot or some measurements of the rods flipped on edge. i'm wondering if the GTR rods are actually thicker in the beam section too. to continue your analogy, something like I--I vs I-I. unless thats what you meant and i misunderstood you, it seemed you were talking about the thickness of the I, left to right in the photo.
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