Just can't break the 200hp mark!
 

So for the past two years i have been trying to break 200hp mark. And just cant do it. My setup: Begi cast iron mani, gt2554, mspnp, custom 3" dp and exhaust. small ebay intercooler( feeling like thats the issue). Step colder plugs. 600cc injectors, walbro pump, manual boost controller.

The car is tuned by me on e85 at about 12psi peak boost. Timing is set at about 20 degrees at peak boost. And afrs are at 11.5 and taper down to 10.5 at peak boost (feel like quite a bit too rich for e85). At peak boost my MAT was at 98 degrees, which i dont think is that hot, right?

Yesterday i did 193hp and 180 torque. I was really hoping to break the 200hp mark.

So whats going on? Am i being way too conservative with timing and afrs?

Run pump gas? Stoich on e85 is like 8:1, so you need to be dumping A FUCKLOAD more fuel to make the same power.

Could probably safely do a little more timing, a little less gas, a little more boost, or some combination of the 3. IMO.







Or even better, you could just find a dyno that reads higher.

know much about tuning? If not dont make stupid comments.

Yeah... that was at like highest reading dynojet. I do think i need bigger IC a little leaner, i know people run 12s on e85. I have no idea whats safe timing for my car.

I made 198hp on a stock msm turbo on pump gas, regular 93 octane 4 years ago. So it would seem I know more then you do.

Look at all the threads with people running e85, they are running 1000cc injectors for a reason. E85 does not have the same amount of energy in it as normal fuel, this is fact. Run 11.9 afr on normal fuel at the boost level you are at and you will probably make more power.

Aricjm15, the guys running 1000cc injectors are also running 300rwhp beasts.

Oh, and good job, you (nearly) maxed out a turbo. Woo-hoo for you :jerkit:

Post maps.

What does 1000cc injectors comment has to do with anything. My injector duty cycle is around 75-80%. I am for sure not running out of fuel.

11.9 on pump in boost is dangerously lean. At 12afr you are a very close step away from detonation. I would rather loose a few hp then have bent rods and holes in pistons.

11.9 on e85 is about right.

e85 is way better for turbo application, and thats a fact. lower egts, higher octane rating, cooler combustion and ability to run more boost.

I really do think that 2554 is capable of at least 230 with right tuning.

Copied from wikipedia

E85 stoichiometric 9.765
E85 max power rich 6.975
E85 max power lean 8.4687

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_...tio_comparison

There was actually a thread a while back that discussed the affects of using other fuels with different stoich ratios (meth, E85, etc). If I remember correctly it was determined that, despite what the gauge tells you, the wideband is not really reading an AFR but is instead reading a stoichiometric mixture ratio. I think the general consensus was that no matter what fuel you were running you would want to tune to a similar "AFR" readout on the gauge, as you were actually tuning to the ratio above or below stoich rather than a true "AFR". (If that makes any sense, man I wish I could find the thread now)

ding, ding, ding, we got a winner. Thats what i was talking about, but just thought i wont try to even argue. wbo2 read lambda and will show 14.7 as stoich for both e85 and pump. So if tuning with lc-1 you can just tune for gas numbers and get the right mixture anyway.

Lambda vs AFR

does not matter. wbo2 read lambda and it will report 14.7 no matter what fuel you are running.

Aricjm15 just stfu


gauge will read correct for gas as it will for e85. everything else doesn't fucking matter. you read the wbo2, adjust for stoich out of boost and mid to high 11's in boost and that's it.
stop muddying up this thread with useless bullshit.


Rushin the biggest reason you don't make power is cause you're being a pussy.
10.5 with e85 is way too rich.
also post your timing map. I'll bet its beyond conservative as well.

get the afr's into high 11's and "man up" the timing map and you'll be at 210-220 easy IMO

If I was to run E85 I'd be looking for my afrs to be in the very low 12s. Once you get that dialed in play with the timing on a dyno and see where that takes you. Most likely you'll hit MBT long before you can get it to knock.

Here is my fuel map

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/a.../FuelTable.jpg

Timing Map

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/a.../TimingMap.jpg

Dyno Run

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/a...ov/DynoRun.jpg

well the timing isn't as bad as I thought. 20* at peak boost isn't horrible. definitely conservative. but not horrible.


your afr's look like they're actually even lower than 10.5 by that log. get them into the 11.6 range at least and report back.

I don't think my afrs really go much lower than 10.5. If the weather stays good I will try to bump up the afrs and maybe add one or two degree of timing.

This is correct.

The sensor itself reads lambda, and then the controller / gauge contains either a lookup table or a formula which translates this to an AFR. Assuming that the gauge is calibrated for gasoline, a labmda reading of 1 will produce a display of 14.7, regardless of what fuel you're burning. So if you're burning E85 and yet your gauge is calibrated for gasoline, a displayed value of 14.7 actually means a true AFR of 9.765.

Download a copy of the AEM UEGO manual. It contains a table which correlates various AFR / lambda readings of various fuels.

Setup is all there, that's basically the same setup I made 217whp through. Lean the AFRs out - low 12s are safe on E85. 20 degrees is more than enough, I was running like 14-15deg at 16psi on pump gas. Leakdown/compression numbers? 1.6 isn't helping, I made those numbers on a stock '99 longblock.


Internet armchair wisdom is failing you. Widebands read lambda and convert to air/fuel ratio. 14.7:1 on gasoline is 1.0 lambda, and it's still 1.0 lambda if you switch to E85, and the gauge will still read 14.7:1 even though the stoich ratio is 9.7. As E85 has become more prevalent, most folks have left their widebands set up for gasoline and just referred to the AFRs in that manner. Thus, when he says 11.9:1 AFR, I have no idea what AFR he actually is at, but I know that he's safe or perhaps a hair rich on E85.

edit: beaten by like 4 people.

Head is stock but pretty much brand new. 3 angle valve job has been done last year.

bottom end has around 145k on it. 3cyl has lower compression than the others.

Fixed that for ya ;)

why are we running e85 for 200rwhp again?

I was hitting 200rwhp at 13psi on my old T3 setup, with a 2.25" exhaust and the stock ECU.

your fuel map looks whack, why so rich between 3000-4000RPM in cruise?

At what map is it rich? Its probably my cruising. Car run too hot and too lean when cruising.

You go from 57% VE to 91% VE in cruise cells. That a LOT more fuel at just 75kPa. Honesty the table as a whole just looks completely untuned.

Why are your AITs so high? and Why aren't you using the AIT corrections table to compensate, NOT the VE table.

Never played with ait table. What does it do?

Not sure, why it runs hot. Pribably because the air is not hitting the intercooler ad the radiator. I am missing the air guide and the under body plastic guard.

I am sometimes seeing 1400-1500 degree egts when cruising.

I can't help you. I don't understand the reason for the e85, nor do I have knowledge of how to run with it. Sounds like you have an underlying issue, I see no reason your AITs would get high in cruise, unless your intake was behind the radiator or something.

EGTs mean nothing to me, could be too little or too much timing and other various non-absolutes.

are you sure your cat isn't clogged or something?

I by no means a professional tuner, so don't be to harsh. I have not touched anything except ve map and spark map a little bit.

I made 233whp on a greddy (12-13psi) with a 2.5 exhaust and pump gas. There's no reason why you should be running e85 on a car that doesn't even make 200whp.

Well e85 has a way higher octane rating, that fr starters. Pretty much proven to make more power if tuned well. Its safer because it does not detonate as early as pump 91-93 does. And it does not smell, biggest issueni had is because I am catless every time I come to a stop sign I wanted to throw up.

My ait are fine. The egts were high at cruise and afrs would climb to high 16s so I dropped them down to high 14s low 15s. And took the timing out in the cruise area.

When I switch to e85 it was night and day. Car runs so much smoother and does not have smoking issue anymore. Maybe coinsidense but it's a fact in my case.

can you post your msq and log file please?

Sure. Anything that will help me understand why I am not making more power.

Here is the msq and the dyno log.

Retarded cruise timing could be causing the EGTs. Same with the rich fuel around cruise. Think about it - the more you retard the timing, the later it will spark, meaning that the gasses will be hotter going through the exhaust. Same thing with more fuel. The more fuel it burns, combined with the fact that it's burning later means that the gas will be hotter than a leaner, more advanced map.

You got it wrong. More timing causes the car to run hotter. Less fuel causes leaner mixture making the car run hotter.

And there is little AIT connection between fuel mixture and timing. AIT is way before anything gets burnt.

High AIT in my case is either cause by a tiny intercooler or not enough air hitting it.

I meant EGTs. My bad. Get a bigger IC :).

The reason why i took out timing at cruise and richen that area is because i was running close to 1500 degrees egt and the CLT would get close to 210 degrees.

Then something's wrong with the cooling system if you have to balance EGTs and CLTs. Go do an experiment - advance timing and lean out at cruise and I guarantee that the EGTs will go down.

As for the CLTs? Get a new radiator, seal mouth around IC and rad. If you've really gotta balance them, something is wrong.

That how fine tuning works. You tune based on EGTs and wideband.

I can guarantee you that you have a very flawed idea of how lean mixtures for some reason reduce egts and clt. And how advancing timing will reduce that as well. That is totally the opposite.

Lean mixtures burn hotter. This is true. But if it's too rich it will still be combusting when leaving the cylinder, and thus when in the exhaust, and thus hotter temps IN THE EXHAUST. I'm not talking about anywhere else except the exhaust. Same thing with timing. Retard the timing and it fires later in the cycle and the gas is still burning when it leaves the cylinder.

Yes, leaner mixture will cause extremely high temps in the cylinder, but a healthy cooling system should be able to cope. Leaner mixture means higher CLTs and engine temps.

Here's what Y8s said about it in a thread from a while ago:

Both you and that other guy need to read a little about how the this whole thing works.

If I was running too rich I would be backfiring and leaking gas out of the tail pipe (not that bad, or even possible) but I am not runing anywhere overly rich.

I have studied tuning enough to understan how it all works, just never bothered to make it perfect. I know the theory well enough but don't have the good enough knowledge of megasquirt or tuner studios to implement it. I am sure there ia another way to fine tune the cruising than just throwing fuel at the main VE map. I just don't know what it is. There is no book on how everything works in tuner studies.

I'll just let someone else chime in here.

Retarded timing causes high EGT, there's no real debate there. If you retard the timing, you make less power, which means more of the energy from the gasoline is produced as heat (by necessity). Thus, retarded timing = lower power = higher EGTs. It's a trick that tuners use to spool larger turbos - retard the timing way, way down to pump as much heat into the turbine as possible at lower RPM, and then advance it back up once the turbine is on song.

Leaner burn does lift EGT as well, provided we aren't talking about ultra-lean burn stuff. It's not as simple to explain - it has a lot more to do with gaseous barriers and basic chemistry than I can give a quick synopsis for.

Holy shit I can't believe how little he knows about the combustion process and how his egt's are affected by it yet is telling others "you got it all wrong":facepalm:



IF YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE DOING YOU WOULDN'T BE MAKING PATHETIC ASS POWER AND RUNNING LIKE SHIT.


So how about instead of telling people they don't know what they're talking about after you ask them for help you actually listen and read up on this shit.


You keep saying e85 has higher octane, runs better, more power, etc etc yet your car runs hot and is weak: exactly the opposite of how its supposed to.

This means there's a problem.


Retarding timing and adding gobs of unnecessary fuel at idle/cruise/partial boost, hell even at full boost will spike your egt's out the ass. That is a fact.


You really need to ditch that stupid fucking EGT sensor. You need to get your afr's into shape 1st thing. Then start perfecting timing.

I think the EGT gauge is distracting you and causing you to do stupid shit with your tune that is resulting in car running poorly.

Get AFR's into shape. Report back. if you get your tune spot on its only going to help you, not hurt you. even if it later turns out that it wasn't your tune.


I had a horrible time setting up e85 on my car simply cause I was one of the 1st people with an Adaptronic using it. I later found out that 100% of my issues were because of my own stupid fault = my shitty tuning. Now the car is strong as shit and runs like a champ. You have lots of reading to do.

hmmm b6 like e85

You're sure that this turbo can hit 230whp but you can't do it. Upgrade that shit with something larger and just get it over with.

Dude - OP - You're in here asking for help, it's not helping your cause to argue with the people trying to give you advice. Remember, YOU are the one having trouble making your power goals. IIWY I'd sit back and let people brainstorm instead of shooting their ideas down.

Just sayin'.

Hmmmm........A clue......