Just can't break the 200hp mark! - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Engine Performance This section is for discussion on all engine building related questions.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-17-2010, 08:16 PM   #1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 963
Total Cats: -1
Default Just can't break the 200hp mark!

So for the past two years i have been trying to break 200hp mark. And just cant do it. My setup: Begi cast iron mani, gt2554, mspnp, custom 3" dp and exhaust. small ebay intercooler( feeling like thats the issue). Step colder plugs. 600cc injectors, walbro pump, manual boost controller.

The car is tuned by me on e85 at about 12psi peak boost. Timing is set at about 20 degrees at peak boost. And afrs are at 11.5 and taper down to 10.5 at peak boost (feel like quite a bit too rich for e85). At peak boost my MAT was at 98 degrees, which i dont think is that hot, right?

Yesterday i did 193hp and 180 torque. I was really hoping to break the 200hp mark.

So whats going on? Am i being way too conservative with timing and afrs?
Rushin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 08:20 PM   #2
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Grayslake IL
Posts: 410
Total Cats: 2
Default

Run pump gas? Stoich on e85 is like 8:1, so you need to be dumping A FUCKLOAD more fuel to make the same power.
Aricjm15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 08:22 PM   #3
Elite Member
iTrader: (17)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Fort Myers, FL
Posts: 2,791
Total Cats: 130
Default

Could probably safely do a little more timing, a little less gas, a little more boost, or some combination of the 3. IMO.







Or even better, you could just find a dyno that reads higher.
pdexta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 08:25 PM   #4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 963
Total Cats: -1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aricjm15 View Post
Run pump gas? Stoich on e85 is like 8:1, so you need to be dumping A FUCKLOAD more fuel to make the same power.
know much about tuning? If not dont make stupid comments.
Rushin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 08:28 PM   #5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 963
Total Cats: -1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdexta View Post
Could probably do a little more timing, a little less gas, a little more boost, or some combination of the 3.







Or even better, you could just find a dyno that reads higher.
Yeah... that was at like highest reading dynojet. I do think i need bigger IC a little leaner, i know people run 12s on e85. I have no idea whats safe timing for my car.
Rushin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 08:31 PM   #6
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Grayslake IL
Posts: 410
Total Cats: 2
Default

I made 198hp on a stock msm turbo on pump gas, regular 93 octane 4 years ago. So it would seem I know more then you do.

Look at all the threads with people running e85, they are running 1000cc injectors for a reason. E85 does not have the same amount of energy in it as normal fuel, this is fact. Run 11.9 afr on normal fuel at the boost level you are at and you will probably make more power.
Aricjm15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 08:33 PM   #7
Want fries with that?
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posts: 2,023
Total Cats: -1
Default

Aricjm15, the guys running 1000cc injectors are also running 300rwhp beasts.

Oh, and good job, you (nearly) maxed out a turbo. Woo-hoo for you

Post maps.
rider384 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 08:37 PM   #8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 963
Total Cats: -1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aricjm15 View Post
I made 198hp on a stock msm turbo on pump gas, regular 93 octane 4 years ago. So it would seem I know more then you do.

Look at all the threads with people running e85, they are running 1000cc injectors for a reason. E85 does not have the same amount of energy in it as normal fuel, this is fact. Run 11.9 afr on normal fuel at the boost level you are at and you will probably make more power.
What does 1000cc injectors comment has to do with anything. My injector duty cycle is around 75-80%. I am for sure not running out of fuel.

11.9 on pump in boost is dangerously lean. At 12afr you are a very close step away from detonation. I would rather loose a few hp then have bent rods and holes in pistons.

11.9 on e85 is about right.

e85 is way better for turbo application, and thats a fact. lower egts, higher octane rating, cooler combustion and ability to run more boost.
Rushin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 08:38 PM   #9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 963
Total Cats: -1
Default

I really do think that 2554 is capable of at least 230 with right tuning.
Rushin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 08:38 PM   #10
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Grayslake IL
Posts: 410
Total Cats: 2
Default

Copied from wikipedia

E85 stoichiometric 9.765
E85 max power rich 6.975
E85 max power lean 8.4687

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_...tio_comparison
Aricjm15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 08:41 PM   #11
Elite Member
iTrader: (17)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Fort Myers, FL
Posts: 2,791
Total Cats: 130
Default

There was actually a thread a while back that discussed the affects of using other fuels with different stoich ratios (meth, E85, etc). If I remember correctly it was determined that, despite what the gauge tells you, the wideband is not really reading an AFR but is instead reading a stoichiometric mixture ratio. I think the general consensus was that no matter what fuel you were running you would want to tune to a similar "AFR" readout on the gauge, as you were actually tuning to the ratio above or below stoich rather than a true "AFR". (If that makes any sense, man I wish I could find the thread now)
pdexta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 08:45 PM   #12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 963
Total Cats: -1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdexta View Post
There was actually a thread a while back that discussed the affects of using other fuels with different stoich ratios (meth, E85, etc). If I remember correctly it was determined that, despite what the gauge tells you, the wideband is not really reading an AFR but is instead reading a stoichiometric mixture ratio. I think the general consensus was that no matter what fuel you were running you would want to tune to a similar "AFR" readout on the gauge, as you were actually tuning to the ratio above or below stoich rather than a true "AFR". (If that makes any sense, man I wish I could find the thread now)
ding, ding, ding, we got a winner. Thats what i was talking about, but just thought i wont try to even argue. wbo2 read lambda and will show 14.7 as stoich for both e85 and pump. So if tuning with lc-1 you can just tune for gas numbers and get the right mixture anyway.
Rushin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 08:46 PM   #13
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Grayslake IL
Posts: 410
Total Cats: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdexta View Post
There was actually a thread a while back that discussed the affects of using other fuels with different stoich ratios (meth, E85, etc). If I remember correctly it was determined that, despite what the gauge tells you, the wideband is not really reading an AFR but is instead reading a stoichiometric mixture ratio. I think the general consensus was that no matter what fuel you were running you would want to tune to a similar "AFR" readout on the gauge, as you were actually tuning to the ratio above or below stoich rather than a true "AFR". (If that makes any sense, man I wish I could find the thread now)
Lambda vs AFR
Aricjm15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 09:09 PM   #14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 963
Total Cats: -1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aricjm15 View Post
Lambda vs AFR
does not matter. wbo2 read lambda and it will report 14.7 no matter what fuel you are running.
Rushin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 10:44 PM   #15
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,202
Total Cats: 2,584
Default

Aricjm15 just stfu


gauge will read correct for gas as it will for e85. everything else doesn't ******* matter. you read the wbo2, adjust for stoich out of boost and mid to high 11's in boost and that's it.
stop muddying up this thread with useless bullshit.


Rushin the biggest reason you don't make power is cause you're being a *****.
10.5 with e85 is way too rich.
also post your timing map. I'll bet its beyond conservative as well.

get the afr's into high 11's and "man up" the timing map and you'll be at 210-220 easy IMO

Last edited by 18psi; 10-18-2010 at 12:36 AM.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 10:53 PM   #16
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,923
Total Cats: 0
Default

If I was to run E85 I'd be looking for my afrs to be in the very low 12s. Once you get that dialed in play with the timing on a dyno and see where that takes you. Most likely you'll hit MBT long before you can get it to knock.
JayL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 11:05 PM   #17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 963
Total Cats: -1
Default

Here is my fuel map



Timing Map

Rushin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 11:10 PM   #18
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 963
Total Cats: -1
Default

Dyno Run

Rushin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 11:14 PM   #19
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,202
Total Cats: 2,584
Default

well the timing isn't as bad as I thought. 20* at peak boost isn't horrible. definitely conservative. but not horrible.


your afr's look like they're actually even lower than 10.5 by that log. get them into the 11.6 range at least and report back.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 11:20 PM   #20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 963
Total Cats: -1
Default

I don't think my afrs really go much lower than 10.5. If the weather stays good I will try to bump up the afrs and maybe add one or two degree of timing.
Rushin is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 59 12-15-2017 09:00 PM
TunerStudio timining issue - 90 Miata 1.6 Turbo spec1sef MEGAsquirt 28 05-09-2017 08:03 AM
Cannot set Base Timing to 10* Elfering MEGAsquirt 50 10-05-2015 09:04 AM
Back to Stock Part Out!! Turbo Parts, MS2 Enhanced 01-05, Suspension, and MOAR! StratoBlue1109 Miata parts for sale/trade 16 10-02-2015 10:39 AM
ME221 Now has Autotune and Long Term Fuel Trim Tables Motorsport-Electronics ECUs and Tuning 0 09-05-2015 09:02 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:43 PM.