Miata LFX Swap (Singular Motorsports & Good-Win Racing)
 

This thread will document the conversion of my 1990 time attack car from the current 1.6L turbo to the new-hotness LFX 3.6L V6 and drivetrain.

The donors; A bit of this, a bit of that:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1435869984 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1435869984


Now is a very exciting time for Miatas, lots of options and knowledge for making horsepower in various flavors. The 1.6L motor has served me well, but to be competitive in the "run what ya brung" time attack structure open to any chassis/motor, more power is needed.

I've been carefully weighing the options for a long time. I'm looking for ~40% more power than current turbo setup while hitting these marks:
*reliable
*smooth power delivery (consistent lap times)
*low weight/good weight distribution
*low heat
*low replacement cost
*robust drivetrain

I'm not the type to gamble on things, and this is certainly the path less traveled, but after a lot of research and discussion with V8R, everything looks really really good on paper. I'm going for balance over sheer gobs of horsepower. Expecting that my weight balance will actually improve over the car's current config.

One of the biggest reasons for taking this direction is to preserve the recipe I've ran for years where I utilize a motor straight from the junkyard. Think of this as the same recipe as a 949 Racing SuperMiata, but with double the horsepower and torque; Engine and transmission drop in straight from the junkyard. Trans and diff are overrated for the power output of the motor. Run till it won't go no more, then get another one. Going rates on the longblock and transmission are only about 25% more than an NB1/2 motor and 6 speed.

Here's the kicker, relevent to some: V8R is working on CARB certifications for their kit. This could mean big things for those in certain states, especially all of us here in CA.

This is my personal car, but development transfers directly to new products and knowledge for Good-Win Racing and Singular Motorsports. If the kits get CARB cert then we'll be working with V8R to sell these to our West Coast customers, so this car will give us the opportunity to work through the swap process first-hand. There are a couple things I'm already working on and working with other companies to create solutions where current options either don't tick the boxes we need or don't exist at all.

This thread will serve as an information dump where everyone can follow along with the progress. I'll try to thoroughly document weights of everything coming off and going on as well as scale the car before/after the swap.

Feel free to ask any questions, contribute information, discuss anything related to this swap, etc. We have a solid plan in place for the overall process, but there will undoubtedly be lots of things that we will just work through and find solutions for as we progress, so if you have a question right now for "how will X and Y work together" the answer may be an honest "Not sure yet!" but we will figure it out.

-Ryan

Sub'd

Assume you've seen this thread:

https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...-thread-83090/

Aaaannnddd, he's selling the car:

https://www.miataturbo.net/cars-sale...n-fresh-84904/

Yep, great example of a clean and well done swap. I think that's the first finished swap outside of V8R's own car, but it was done so early on that he had to DIY some of the solutions that V8R was still developing for the swap. Should be noted that he's not selling for lack of awesomeness.

More pics to follow soon of all the bits I have here but I've got a plane to catch this afternoon.

-Ryan

<p></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Hell ya. That's great news. I hope they can get it done. I've never known what direction to take my build in the long run since CARB legality and bi-anual smog is always a concern.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Will be following this build.&nbsp;</p>

Relevant to my own interests, subbing

Particularly interested in good clearance solution

Boss. What's the plan for the diff and limited slip?

Awesome, I'll be watching this.

Question: As a complete conversion (Motor to axles, heat exchangers, etc) how do you anticipate the total weight and weight distribution to change vs a stock miata?

I gotta say the LFX looks like a great swap for a miata.

Miata LFX Swap (Singular Motorsports & Good-Win Racing)
 

Diff can be Getrag or Ford, same as V8 swaps, or keep it stock. V8R has kits for both.

I've been strongly considering this swap to replace the built engine/GT2871 setup in my 10AE. I don't want to give up any power and having similar output with an under-stressed stock engine with oem driveability sound very nice. I'm looking forward to seeing your build.

On a Mazdaspeed I believe it dropped weight. I'll see if we can get confirmation

Going with V8R's Getrag Stage 2 which consists of the diff mount, axles rated for 550 ft-lbs, full billet replacement hubs with ARP studs, and driveshaft. This is their same kit as designed for the V8 cars, but with driveshaft specific to the transmission. Opted for the aluminum driveshaft because race car.

Most of those parts are en-route right now, but the Getrag diff mount is already here. The two bare steel tabs get welded to the Miata rear subframe:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1435987880

Depends on the car. V8R's MSM was nearly a wash between the factory drivetrain and the full LFX swap from what I recall. I'm sure a stock naturally aspirated Miata would have it beat, but nobody is making 250+whp on a naturally aspirated car, so that's apples to oranges. Compared to a turbo car, I expect this to have a better weight distribution - some of the rear components add weight over what is coming out (but are stronger), and in the front you've got a tubular subframe and all aluminum motor.

My weight distribution is worse than most of you probably would expect. That's partly due to aero additions up front, and a lot of easy weight saving in the rear, but the turbo makes matters worse. Most of you guys have seen my V-mount setup - that's a big intercooler and other bits far ahead of the front axles, plus the turbo and cast iron manifold.

Currently I'm at 59% F / 41% R. I'll double check that on the scales right before the tear-down begins and then scale it again with the new drivetrain, so we will have some solid answers by the end of things.

-Ryan

The LFX Motor

Many of you have probably read up on the motor, but for those who haven't:

The LFX is Chevy's "High Feature" 3.6L 60° V6 DOHC all-aluminum engine found in several different specs across the 2012-2014 Chevy and Cadillac line-up. It has a composite intake manifold to reduce weight, and an integrated exhaust manifold head design that collects exhaust gas into one single exhaust port on each side of the engine (in other words, a dream to fabricate exhaust for this). It has direct injection (awesome).

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1435990618

The LFX acronym was supposed to denote Flex Fuel capability, but that feature is not integrated into the Camaro from what I've found. Unknown as of now whether the ECU has the capability to run a flex fuel sensor. However, I've done some digging and turns out that the fuel system's hardware is all designed to be E85-capable, with injectors sized at 109 lbs/hr (1,100cc). So even if flex fuel is out, it looks like switching to E85 is just a tune away - no hardware changes needed.

Although found in the Cadillac CTS, ATS, Chevy Impala and others, the one to get is from the Camaro. Rated at 323hp and 278 ft-lbs at the flywheel.

Picked up the motor last week, 5 miles from the Mexico border. I specifically looked for one that had just come in and wasn't pulled from the car yet so that I could point at all the components I wanted to keep attached to the motor and get a package deal for it all. That way I also didn't spend hours figuring out where stuff goes later.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1435990618

For $2100
- Engine
- Alternator
- Power steering
- A/C
- Engine wiring harness
- Starter
- Gas pedal (for the drive-by-wire)

I likely won't need all the accessories, but this way I have a template for the factory belt layout from the beginning. I just MIGHT play with keeping the power steering - low-effort steering with 15x10s would be mighty nice...

This is the only time I needed to be picky about the motor and pay extra for all the accessories, wiring, etc. Next time I need a replacement motor everything will be in place and can swap over, so expect ~$1700 for a replacement long block with low miles.

V8Roadsters LFX Subframe
Same design as used for the V8 cars, but with LFX-specific mounts:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1435990979

V8Roadsters LFX Oil Pan
This is a factory unit modified for clearance:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...psgbt4dewj.jpg

Attachment 183888

-Ryan

Looking forward to more progress. Subscribed.

Also holy crap at 59% front weight distribution, I would have thought maybe 55% worst case scenario. Is that with you in the car?

That is without driver. Yeah, surprising huh? A true street car won't be so bad because it hasn't had all the weight pulled out of the back. Ask most people who haven't scaled their turbo/supercharged cars what they think the balance is and their guesstimate will be very optimistic.

-Ryan

Oh I don't really know what mine is without me in the car. What is the distribution with you sitting in it?

Last time I checked and corner balanced mine at 2360lbs with me in the car (I'm 6'5" and about 275lbs) it was 50.0% cross and 50.0% front/rear at about half a tank lol. But I'm also N/A so yeah.

I'll check my notes and see if I have that, if I can't find it I'll check distribution with me in it when I scale it before the tear down. For some reason I seem to have noted the distribution, cross weights, etc. of the car without me, and just noted the total weight with me in it (2,180 lbs)

The car is sitting at about 2010 lbs +/-5 lbs depending on wheel/tire combo. It would break under 1900 lbs without the aero or turbo, but then it'd be a lot slower ;) there is weight to be saved in the front, but it's not the low-hanging fruit. Significant weight savings in the rear is nearly free, in the front takes cutting, welding, and/or money.

-Ryan

What did the car weigh at 59/41? Theseus was ~1925lbs dry and was never worse than 54/46.

My car is 2180lbs with me in it. Scales in at 55/45 with fuel cell in passengers side floor. Weird your % is so much different than mine and Sav's.

Great motor choice. Lot's of modern tech in that thing.

Last time on the scales was 2013 lbs total, 1195 of that on the nose.

That was last Fall, hadn't realized it's been so long since I've scaled it, man this year is flying by. There have been changes since then including dry carbon top, LiFePO4 battery, and v3 bigger/lighter splitter, so it will have changed a bit.

-Ryan

Which transmission will you be using for this swap?

<p>Subd</p>

Awwwww Yissss. Saw the Instagram update, glad there's a thread now.

Car will turn out legendary. Sub'd for fine fabrication fancy-work.

Debated over this for a while. The Camaro comes with an Aisin LY6 6-speed with the "MV5" designation. That box has some interesting ratios. From 1st to 6th gear: 4.48 / 2.58 / 1.63 / 1.19 / 1 / 0.75

1st and 2nd are super short, 3rd has a big drop and is very long, then 4th is very short again. I can think of arguments for and against this, depending on the specific scenario/track.

The base model Cadillac CTS uses the same engine, and has a manual gearbox option - that transmission is the MV7, and it has much more evenly-spaced ratios: 4.16 / 2.51 / 1.69 / 1.27 / 1 / 0.75

To visualize the differences between the two transmission, I graphed them:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1436137418

I decided to go for the MV7. Turns out this trans is rather rare - likely because the base model CTS is rarely chosen with a manual - but I finally found one with low miles in Texas and had it shipped over. $1200 including freight:


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1436137418

did you check out the price of a new trans? when i was doing my swap it was cheaper to buy a t56 straight from tremmic vs. used+rebuild.

What are you doing for wiring? Making a standalone harness out of the factory harness? I'm not finding ECU pinouts online.

What about gauges? It looks like a Racepak logger would pair nicely with the OBD2 module.

Are you sticking with the CTS clutch-type LSD? One of my friends has the CTS clutch-type in his V8-swapped car and wasn't very happy with it last time I talked to him. Lots of wheel spin.

I feel like this has already been discussed in one of the other LFX threads, but would a miata diff with 3.63 and OS Giken be an option for an LFX swap?

I would recommend not running the miata Diff. As stock motors can kill one of those. add in +200ftlbs and you'll be changing out diffs regularly.

Since when are stock motors blowing diffs? The only time I have seen that happen is 1.6l open diffs. Most high horsepower builds here still utilize the stock diff or OS Giken replacement and they seem to hold up just fine.

Stock r&p are supposedly good for like 500+. Add in torsen and you can blow one with

Most of the big spec miata teams bring many spares. It's fairly regular i see team thrashing between races to replace them.
I should clarify. On the street, i doubt you'll blow one on stock power.

Are you sure those aren't 1.6 diff's?

V8R will be walking me through the wiring changes needed. It's my understanding that they are working on an off-the shelf solution for that, but I'm doing the swap ahead of the release of that product.

For gauges, I'll likely go spartan at first and re-use my Accutech water/oil temp gauges, and just worry about getting the tach working. I completely agree, the way to go is a digital dash that pulls all the data straight from the ECU, but I'll need to delay that purchase after the higher priorities are addressed.

-Ryan

I've heard good things about the getrag diffs. The V8R "spec" cars all run them in their L33 V8 swapped cars with good results according to Shandelle, and others have reported that they are an upgrade in behavior from the Torsen. Also good ground clearance (for flat bottom). If I turn out to not like it, I'll explore other options.

-Ryan

Once you have power a forgiving Diff is nice to have. I run a plane 28 spline viscus out of a mustang. i don't feel the need for anything more.

is your shift linkage steel or aluminum? thanks!

Linkage is steel. V8Roadsters will be offering a modified linkage to fit the Miata. Pics of that when it arrives here.

-Ryan

I'm doing the same swap, haven't made a thread over here yet. Using the MV7 as well. Need to update the threads as we've gone a few step backs while I fixed my brothers car, but we're starting to move forward again. My dad watched some of turbotom's V8 build and we ended up making DIY lizardskin for $30 and installing the IL motorsports bushings. After carnut's build (and being able to see the car in person as he's local to us) we decided the modified oil pan was necessary and pulled the engine back out and put it on a stand. Just got the oil pan delivered today. I'm trying to document as much as possible for part numbers and howto's. Next big thing I'm about to tackle is converting the automatic wiring harness to manual and making a standalone harness from scratch. Feel free to ping me with any questions.

Portabull's noname 96 LFX Swap

V6 all the miatas.

Subscribed for awesome swap.

one more question about your shift linkage: does it have a u-joint in the middle leg? thanks!

Snapped a close up pic for ya. Mine is missing the bushings in the center linkage, I'll likely make some rather than order from GM, unless the V8R unit turns out to have bushings with it when it arrives..

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1436459624

Looking forward to seeing your progress.

I was really interested in this swap, but the radio silence out of V8R for so long had me drifting back towards a V8. If the development of the swap is actually progressing, I could get interested again.

From what I've seen, V8R has been hard at work on this swap since the maiden voyage of their test car less than a year ago, trying many different configurations of parts, tearing everything back apart and inspecting for wear and stress, etc. etc. etc. but that takes mountains of time and they've stayed low-key on it while they work through that process.

-Ryan

thanks for the picture. i couldn't quite make out the linkage in the picture of the whole transmission. our linkage is aluminum and we're not looking forward to the fabrication that carnut had to do.... hopefully the v8r modified part will get to you quickly.

Power Steering kit. This adapts the GM power steering pump to an NB rack. All of the hard lines are replaced and it includes fittings for both the pump and the rack.

Not 100% sure at this point what I'll end up doing for the steering. I was initially planning to run without power assist for the weight benefit. But, haven't had power steering for years, and I picture it being really nice to have again - easier to be fast and consistent if you're comfortable after all. BUT, will very likely need a cooler for the P/S fluid for track use. At any rate, I made sure to get the P/S pump with the motor, so I can play with it.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1436546467

V8Roadsters just finished up dyno tuning on their car. 99* F ambient, 60%RH on a dynojet so these are conservative numbers. On a cooler day they would be in the 290's.

Yes please:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1436546663

In the next few weeks they plan to switch over to E85, which should easily break 300hp.

If you google 2012 Camaro dyno sheets, the few you'll find are lower than this on average. More power in the Miata application is in part due to improved tuning and in part due to less rotational mass. V8R's numbers above are with the stock flywheel and clutch (HEAVY). Expect to see a bit more at the wheels with a lighter combo. We have exciting things in the works on this front.

-Ryan

Damn.

249 ft lbs @ 4k. you'll notice that off the corners.



I ran my car originally without power steering. it was fine on the road. Autocross was a real bitch. i would get out of a 90 sec run dripping with sweat and my arms pumping. On track i didn't feel i was able to catch the car as easy if i was over steering. so i put PS back on.

Same experience here. Giving back-to-back rides at the autocross leaves me worn out. The big track is less work, but there are some tracks with big long high-g sweepers that will leave me with sore shoulders by the end of a session. I'd like to put a focus on making the car easy to drive.

-Ryan

Torque graph is pretty flat.

Good to know. I might leave the power steering on my car that's getting the 245 RC1s.

That's a really nice torque curve.

Would adding forced induction to this motor defeat the purpose of the swap? I can't see how this wouldn't be a 400 whp setup with relatively mild forced induction. I have too much sunk cost in the current boat anchor to find our for myself, just idly curious.

Much props for this whole project.

If it were me, I'd leave the PS out for simplicity. Pulled the PS out of the Red car and honestly don't miss it. I don't think you can directly compare Johnny's V8 experience to this. From what I've read, the V8 adds weight over the front wheels. This swap should remove weight over the front wheels . . . especially compared to your old turbo BP setup with V-mount radiator/intercooler.

All that said, I don't autocross, and I'm a big dude, so . . . . In the end, do what you want, just playing Devil's Advocate.

Depends on your goals I think.

If you want a nicely balanced drive-and-forget track car with gobs of torque everywhere, normally aspirated is the way to go.

If you're after a wild street car or dyno bragging rights, then blow it! In fact, V8 it and then blow it!

:2cents:

This swap is about 300whp with the reliability of stock. If you want it to be 400whp just start with the v8. It will be more reliable and cheaper than v6 plus standalone plus turbo plus injectors plus intercooler plus piping plus upgraded clutch etc.

I'm really scared that this thread is going to cause me to sell my spot in the TSE turbo kit group buy.

Comes with twin turbos in the ATS-V and CTS-V Sport. 450hp if I remember correctly

Yes I have dirty thoughts in the back of my brain about future possibilities if one found the right donor car. The LF3 (in ATS-V) is the same block, forged internals, different compression, two turbos bolted to the sides of the motor (note: no turbo manifold - just turbo bolted to head)

But REALLY, this is the focus:

plot looks great, but, every time I see someone start a pull at 3k or post a screen shot ignoring everything below 3.5k I want to kill someone
if you have the full plot from like 2k, please post up

not rwhp, but sae certified....

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1436899090