MSM IHI turbo failurs at what boost pressure?
05-01-2015, 01:42 AM
#6
Anyone concerned with making power on a MSM swaps out the turbo long before maxing out the stock IHI....lol
I'd imagine anything above 210-220 rwhp, the thing is blowing mostly hot air and is long out of the range of being efficient....meaning any turbo designed in the past 10 years would be a better option.
I'd imagine anything above 210-220 rwhp, the thing is blowing mostly hot air and is long out of the range of being efficient....meaning any turbo designed in the past 10 years would be a better option.
Reply
0
0
05-01-2015, 02:09 AM
#7
Elite Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 2,826
Total Cats: 67
Yeah Ive been putting together some bits to see what it takes to make the MSM worth modifying.
Front pipe back 3", intake, TBI, ebay intercooler and tune seems to make it worth owning. Im just concerned that there might have been issues running the little turbo this hard, in terms of turbocharger failure.
Dann
Front pipe back 3", intake, TBI, ebay intercooler and tune seems to make it worth owning. Im just concerned that there might have been issues running the little turbo this hard, in terms of turbocharger failure.
Dann
Reply
0
0
05-01-2015, 10:32 AM
#8
Cpt. Slow
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 14,175
Total Cats: 1,129
Yup, I really do mean power.
Torque is always going to go down with RPM, especially with this small of a turbo, I'd expect that. But I'd ideally want power to continue to climb, or at least flat line. The above graph was with 3" exhaust, basically zero muffler, and that includes getting rid of the restrictive cast iron DP elbow off the turbo. Giant Evo intercooler, big injectors, VICs, and an MSPNP2. All shoved in a '92.
Stock MSMs are very worth modifying. A decent downpipe and exhaust, and they'll sound amazing. Intercooler is just for consistency during constant abuse. You'll most likely want a clutch for the drivetrain, otherwise it's great, beyond a shitty 4.1 final drive. You're just in the range of needing forged rods, we bent stocker with a season of abuse at 225hp and 235ft/lbs, which stock rods should handle, but we beat the crap out of it and torque hits hard and fast.
Injectors should be the first mod after you upgrade the ECU, which is mod #0.
I'll be playing with another MSM soon, but the only issue we seem to have is fueling. Of the two MSM engines I've played with, one in the '92 and one '05, the '92 had incredibly stable AFRs, while the returnless '05 had fairly tricky AFRs, I tuned it a little rich, since consistency between runs wasn't great. Don't get me wrong, it left with a decent, albeit slightly rich tune, but it kept me from being as aggressive in my EBC and timing tuning as the above graph. Which I don't think is horribly aggressive.
I should note, that on one run EBC was disabled and acted as a closed wastegate, I need to fix that. However, before it hit boost cut, it made 251ft/lbs by 3850rpm.
Torque is always going to go down with RPM, especially with this small of a turbo, I'd expect that. But I'd ideally want power to continue to climb, or at least flat line. The above graph was with 3" exhaust, basically zero muffler, and that includes getting rid of the restrictive cast iron DP elbow off the turbo. Giant Evo intercooler, big injectors, VICs, and an MSPNP2. All shoved in a '92.
Stock MSMs are very worth modifying. A decent downpipe and exhaust, and they'll sound amazing. Intercooler is just for consistency during constant abuse. You'll most likely want a clutch for the drivetrain, otherwise it's great, beyond a shitty 4.1 final drive. You're just in the range of needing forged rods, we bent stocker with a season of abuse at 225hp and 235ft/lbs, which stock rods should handle, but we beat the crap out of it and torque hits hard and fast.
Injectors should be the first mod after you upgrade the ECU, which is mod #0.
I'll be playing with another MSM soon, but the only issue we seem to have is fueling. Of the two MSM engines I've played with, one in the '92 and one '05, the '92 had incredibly stable AFRs, while the returnless '05 had fairly tricky AFRs, I tuned it a little rich, since consistency between runs wasn't great. Don't get me wrong, it left with a decent, albeit slightly rich tune, but it kept me from being as aggressive in my EBC and timing tuning as the above graph. Which I don't think is horribly aggressive.
I should note, that on one run EBC was disabled and acted as a closed wastegate, I need to fix that. However, before it hit boost cut, it made 251ft/lbs by 3850rpm.
Reply
0
0
05-01-2015, 11:00 AM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: South Chicago
Posts: 697
Total Cats: 26
I ran mine around 11-13psi for about 50k miles since I installed my ms2e and the seals went on me a month or so ago at 105k on the car.
I made a little over 200hp, boost pressure started falling flat on it's face after 6k rpm. Good midrange grunt that's about it. I think 15psi is a little much without meth injection or something. If I hadn't been tuning myself I think I could have pulled some better dyno numbers out of it.
I made a little over 200hp, boost pressure started falling flat on it's face after 6k rpm. Good midrange grunt that's about it. I think 15psi is a little much without meth injection or something. If I hadn't been tuning myself I think I could have pulled some better dyno numbers out of it.
Reply
0
0
05-01-2015, 07:00 PM
#14
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lake Forest, CA
Posts: 7,947
Total Cats: 1,002
14 psi danger zone
the Manifold is not known to crack at 14 psi. You're using PSI like it's a definitive unit of measure. Like 13.5 PSI won't cause the failure that 14 psi would cause.
It doesn't work that way.
The short answer is: Like any turbo, use it outside its efficiency range long enough and hard enough and it's going to die. I bet it'd last at 14 + psi on a street motor for years and years, but only a season or two on a track car (or even less).
Reply
0
0
05-01-2015, 07:31 PM
#15
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 67
Total Cats: 1
Mine did not fare well with frequent track day events. Even at 11# boost, the restrictive IHI created enough heat to eventually crack the diffuser housing after long sessions of wot. I upgraded to a Garrett and continued to track the car uneventfully at 11#/250rwhp over the past several years. ...knock on wood.
Reply
0
0
05-01-2015, 11:14 PM
#16
All-round "Good Guy"
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 992
Total Cats: 245
14 psi danger zone
the Manifold is not known to crack at 14 psi. You're using PSI like it's a definitive unit of measure. Like 13.5 PSI won't cause the failure that 14 psi would cause.
It doesn't work that way.
The short answer is: Like any turbo, use it outside its efficiency range long enough and hard enough and it's going to die. I bet it'd last at 14 + psi on a street motor for years and years, but only a season or two on a track car (or even less).
Like the <250hp "ceiling" on the stock NA/NB engine, <14psi is considered the "ceiling" on the stock IHI turbo.
Reply
0
0
05-01-2015, 11:37 PM
#17
Elite Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 2,826
Total Cats: 67
Its about as expensive to make an MSM worth having as it is to turbo a regular NB from scratch and with a normal NB from scratch at least you get a garrett.
Our MSMs have 3.6 diff gears.
Dann
Reply
0
0
05-04-2015, 09:15 AM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: South Chicago
Posts: 697
Total Cats: 26
If you look on the mazda-speed.com forum for manifold cracking issues, you'll see that many were running 14psi or over which is why I mentioned it. At that sustained level, the turbo is just generating heat.
Like the <250hp "ceiling" on the stock NA/NB engine, <14psi is considered the "ceiling" on the stock IHI turbo.
Like the <250hp "ceiling" on the stock NA/NB engine, <14psi is considered the "ceiling" on the stock IHI turbo.
Reply
0
0
05-04-2015, 10:52 AM
#20
If you look on the mazda-speed.com forum for manifold cracking issues, you'll see that many were running 14psi or over which is why I mentioned it. At that sustained level, the turbo is just generating heat.
Like the <250hp "ceiling" on the stock NA/NB engine, <14psi is considered the "ceiling" on the stock IHI turbo.
Like the <250hp "ceiling" on the stock NA/NB engine, <14psi is considered the "ceiling" on the stock IHI turbo.
PSI has nothing to do with manifold cracking.
Reply
0
0
