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Old 04-30-2015, 04:06 AM   #1
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Default MSM IHI turbo failurs at what boost pressure?

Does the MSM IHI turbocharger have a known failure point or mode when pushed very hard?

Thanks,
Dann
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Old 04-30-2015, 09:07 AM   #2
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Yes, anything above 5000rpm it fails to make power.
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Old 04-30-2015, 09:58 PM   #3
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I think you mean torque.

I'm running one at 15psi and just wondering if the compressor is going to shatter?

Dann
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Old 04-30-2015, 10:08 PM   #4
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No, power.

No, it won't shatter.
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Old 04-30-2015, 10:57 PM   #5
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Power holds flat for all of rpm's, even at 8k. You mean torque.

Thankyou for shattering info. Making 230/230, Pretty happy with that for such a tiny turbo.

Dann
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Old 05-01-2015, 02:42 AM   #6
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Anyone concerned with making power on a MSM swaps out the turbo long before maxing out the stock IHI....lol

I'd imagine anything above 210-220 rwhp, the thing is blowing mostly hot air and is long out of the range of being efficient....meaning any turbo designed in the past 10 years would be a better option.
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Old 05-01-2015, 03:09 AM   #7
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Yeah Ive been putting together some bits to see what it takes to make the MSM worth modifying.

Front pipe back 3", intake, TBI, ebay intercooler and tune seems to make it worth owning. Im just concerned that there might have been issues running the little turbo this hard, in terms of turbocharger failure.

Dann
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Old 05-01-2015, 11:32 AM   #8
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Yup, I really do mean power.



Torque is always going to go down with RPM, especially with this small of a turbo, I'd expect that. But I'd ideally want power to continue to climb, or at least flat line. The above graph was with 3" exhaust, basically zero muffler, and that includes getting rid of the restrictive cast iron DP elbow off the turbo. Giant Evo intercooler, big injectors, VICs, and an MSPNP2. All shoved in a '92.

Stock MSMs are very worth modifying. A decent downpipe and exhaust, and they'll sound amazing. Intercooler is just for consistency during constant abuse. You'll most likely want a clutch for the drivetrain, otherwise it's great, beyond a shitty 4.1 final drive. You're just in the range of needing forged rods, we bent stocker with a season of abuse at 225hp and 235ft/lbs, which stock rods should handle, but we beat the crap out of it and torque hits hard and fast.

Injectors should be the first mod after you upgrade the ECU, which is mod #0.

I'll be playing with another MSM soon, but the only issue we seem to have is fueling. Of the two MSM engines I've played with, one in the '92 and one '05, the '92 had incredibly stable AFRs, while the returnless '05 had fairly tricky AFRs, I tuned it a little rich, since consistency between runs wasn't great. Don't get me wrong, it left with a decent, albeit slightly rich tune, but it kept me from being as aggressive in my EBC and timing tuning as the above graph. Which I don't think is horribly aggressive.

I should note, that on one run EBC was disabled and acted as a closed wastegate, I need to fix that. However, before it hit boost cut, it made 251ft/lbs by 3850rpm.
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Old 05-01-2015, 11:38 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Does the MSM IHI turbocharger have a known failure point or mode when pushed very hard?

Thanks,
Dann

Fails at 15.1psi. 15.05psi is fine.
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Old 05-01-2015, 12:00 PM   #10
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I ran mine around 11-13psi for about 50k miles since I installed my ms2e and the seals went on me a month or so ago at 105k on the car.

I made a little over 200hp, boost pressure started falling flat on it's face after 6k rpm. Good midrange grunt that's about it. I think 15psi is a little much without meth injection or something. If I hadn't been tuning myself I think I could have pulled some better dyno numbers out of it.
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:05 PM   #11
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While dan is correct in theory the turbo is going to sit at more or less its peak flow and power wouldnt drop if VE didnt drop, but the natural VE is dropping off so power is going to drop off.
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Old 05-01-2015, 07:25 PM   #12
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14psi worth of carnage. Well 14psi tapering down to 11-12 at redline when the nut fell off.





It was a good excuse to upgrade and I couldn't be happier.
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MSM IHI turbo failurs at what boost pressure?-124296-track-occasional-street-msm-img_20140919_205535.jpg   MSM IHI turbo failurs at what boost pressure?-124297-track-occasional-street-msm-img_20140919_205452.jpg  
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Old 05-01-2015, 07:55 PM   #13
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Manifold is known to crack at 14psi.
Little difference in power between 13.5psi and 14psi so why risk it?
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:00 PM   #14
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14 psi danger zone

the Manifold is not known to crack at 14 psi. You're using PSI like it's a definitive unit of measure. Like 13.5 PSI won't cause the failure that 14 psi would cause.

It doesn't work that way.

The short answer is: Like any turbo, use it outside its efficiency range long enough and hard enough and it's going to die. I bet it'd last at 14 + psi on a street motor for years and years, but only a season or two on a track car (or even less).
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:31 PM   #15
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Mine did not fare well with frequent track day events. Even at 11# boost, the restrictive IHI created enough heat to eventually crack the diffuser housing after long sessions of wot. I upgraded to a Garrett and continued to track the car uneventfully at 11#/250rwhp over the past several years. ...knock on wood.
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Old 05-02-2015, 12:14 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofan View Post


14 psi danger zone

the Manifold is not known to crack at 14 psi. You're using PSI like it's a definitive unit of measure. Like 13.5 PSI won't cause the failure that 14 psi would cause.

It doesn't work that way.

The short answer is: Like any turbo, use it outside its efficiency range long enough and hard enough and it's going to die. I bet it'd last at 14 + psi on a street motor for years and years, but only a season or two on a track car (or even less).
If you look on the mazda-speed.com forum for manifold cracking issues, you'll see that many were running 14psi or over which is why I mentioned it. At that sustained level, the turbo is just generating heat.

Like the <250hp "ceiling" on the stock NA/NB engine, <14psi is considered the "ceiling" on the stock IHI turbo.
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Old 05-02-2015, 12:37 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
Yup, I really do mean power.



Torque is always going to go down with RPM, especially with this small of a turbo, I'd expect that. But I'd ideally want power to continue to climb, or at least flat line.
You mean like the one I just tuned?




Its about as expensive to make an MSM worth having as it is to turbo a regular NB from scratch and with a normal NB from scratch at least you get a garrett.

Our MSMs have 3.6 diff gears.


Dann
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Old 05-02-2015, 02:27 AM   #18
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Listen Emily, you can take your usable 3.6 and shove it.
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:15 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokiel View Post
If you look on the mazda-speed.com forum for manifold cracking issues, you'll see that many were running 14psi or over which is why I mentioned it. At that sustained level, the turbo is just generating heat.

Like the <250hp "ceiling" on the stock NA/NB engine, <14psi is considered the "ceiling" on the stock IHI turbo.
We've both been around on the ms.com forum for quite some time. In that time I've never once seen a manifold failure. Regardless of boost pressure. The only manifold related issues is the stud nuts backing themselves off over time. That said there's maybe been a handful of posts about turbo failure.
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Old 05-04-2015, 11:52 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokiel View Post
If you look on the mazda-speed.com forum for manifold cracking issues, you'll see that many were running 14psi or over which is why I mentioned it. At that sustained level, the turbo is just generating heat.

Like the <250hp "ceiling" on the stock NA/NB engine, <14psi is considered the "ceiling" on the stock IHI turbo.

PSI has nothing to do with manifold cracking.
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