MZR DISI Turbo Swap: Can It Be Done?
 

My '94 1.8L turbo miata, fun as it is, is on its last legs. The lifters are ticking themselves into oblivion, the transmission makes all kinds of exciting clangs and grindies, the fuel pump is shot, the crank nose wobbles, and I can't drive when it's hotter than 80 degrees out or I get vapor lock. However, it's just such a great car that I can't get rid of it. My buddy drives a Mazdaspeed 3, and we both love it the way it pulls, but it's awfully heavy, and it has all this ridiculous practicality...

So here's the plan: take the 2.3L mzr turbo motor out of a mazdaspeed3 or cx7, bolt on a 6 speed out of a new miata, find myself a torsen and a custom driveshaft, and I ought to be one reflash away from a 300hp, 300ftlb speed demon.

The questions are: Will the new miata transmissions bolt onto the mzr turbo? Don't they put the mzr block in the miata now? Will the assembly fit in my car? Is the mzr internally balanced? Will the torsen out of a '94 miata withstand the torque? Where can I get this hardware anyway? I'm excited; it should end up being very subtle and very fast. Thoughts?

anything is possible. i dont recall seeing anything like that done before but why dont you just go with a v8 swap?

Anything can be done, but being the first to do it generally involves either a lot of work or $$$ or both
it would be far easier to build a 300hp turbo from an existing 1.8 or drop a Ls1/2/3 chevy small block in to get equal or better levels of power and the kits already exist to do both of these for less work and probably less $.

Well, the nice thing about swapping in a mazda engine is that they're light, they're fuel efficient, they're reliable, they're small, my mechanic knows them much better than he knows american v8s, and it'd be much easier to slip by california's fascist emissions laws. How much does a v8 conversion cost, anyway? It can't be cheap.

I will guarantee you an LS1 swap would end up being cheaper by the time you're all done. The MZR doesn't even share intake/exhaust orientation with the BP (intake manifold is on the driver's side).

agreed. if you dont want to do v8 swap, i can sell you my built 2.0L high-compression motor w/ aem ecu, 6 speed tranny, kaaz rear end, etc so i can go v8 :)

I thought most engines rotated the wrong way for a miata diff and transmission, ie you might have 1 forward gear and 6 reverses. Anyways this conversion, although theoretically possible, would cost quite a bit once you buy the engine and supporting parts (turbo, manifolds, wiring harness, ecu, etc). The issues with your current miata add up to about $2500, if you buy a built motor and either a 5 or 6 speed transmission out of an NB (for strength). If you just buy a JDM replacement engine and a used transmission, you're around $1500, if you don't want to fix your engine at all. A rebuild can be a fun and exciting learning process.

or he can buy my shit so i can go v8 (yes, im going to insist on it)

That's a good fucking deal right there :hustler:

you bet. its all complete too! just plug and play. ill even throw in my custom itb setup when its done ;)

The MZR swap is my dream swap. I hear a miata cyl head flows better than the Mazda 3 head. Does anyone know it they use a Miata head on the Mazdaspeed 3?

Oh yeah! you're the anti-v8 guy.


LSx is the best period.



LSx > anything you can drop in a miata

Swapping anything except an LSx into these cars is moronic. Either build and turbo the BP, and get 300+whp out of a decent setup, or swap the LS and do 400-500. Spending the time and money and effort to do an F20c swap or an SR20DET swap is useless - you end up with the same power as the BP for waaay more money.

I learned my lesson about speaking without thinking. That is a swap I am thinking of doing.

Lol I remember the days when I thought swaping a 13btt or a s2000 engine into a miata was the shit!! :laugh::laugh: :bang:

I think that it may end up being a popular swap. Once it has been done, and parts have been developed to do it, why not? I see it using current miata motor, trans and rearend. An advanced swap would be to use the block out of a Mazda 3 for the extra cubes.

Just when I thought you got it ... :facepalm:
I just not worth it.... :dunno:

:skid::skid:Give it time. You will see.

If you are absolutely dead set on swapping an MZR into your Miata, then do it. It hasn't been done before, so everything is going to have to be fabbed up. I hope you have a lot of money, or a lot of fabrication skills. Don't take this the wrong way, but judging from you asking about this swap, it seems as if you don't have the skills to do this swap on your own. Be prepared to spend a ton of money, as all the hours of labor and parts are going to add up quick. In my humble opinion, I agree with everyone here that a turbo BP or an LSx will get you the same/more power than from an MZR for a lot less money.

I know that it will be a lot more expensive than a V8 swap at first. And you are right that a lot of fab work will go with it.

I am not financialy in the position to do it right now. It is still a dream. I do however, have some fabrication and race car building experience. I have done a few DIY projects on my car. And I am not talking about buying and installing parts, but actually building them. The projects that I have done are not near as complicated as this type of project, but I am working towards that level of difficulty.

Just put an SR20DET in.
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It's JDM.

Me having both cars...... IMO no, dont take it the wrong way, but your retarded even considering this.

I am on my second motor with the speed 6 (just bolt on) on a stock turbo I blew my motor.

To answer your question, the motor is direct injected, so the fuel rail does on the head, not the intake manifold, therefore no its not a miata head, not 2.3, duratec head. Its an MZR DISI head.

IMO mazda's direct injection sucks, the motor is great, beefy forged rods, strong pistons, but still people blow their motor (rods give out) because of heat and knock under partial load. Mazda had one purpose for this car, good fuel economy and great emissions. Take those two and that means crappy power output, and nobody can completely understand this ECU, cobb is doing good, but still theyre not 100% there.

I dont think your mechanic knows this motor, its only been around for 3 years and people were blowing, tearing it apart, rebuilding and blowing them again just to understand the weak point and try to fix them, to this day there no complete understanding as to how and why motors blow while your at partial throttle!

Just like everybody else said, V8.

Wow. Have you been to the track yet?

lol that was a joke, but several people have done it. It's really only worth it if you happen to have a SR lying around, that's built up, and a miata chassis with no motor.
http://jsjbrothers.com/albums/album1...stom.sized.jpg
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...y/DSC06112.jpg

As far as the MZR goes, it's not even close to being an awesome engine. There's so many better and cooler options out there for a swap. Put a RB26 in there. That would be cool as hell.

I appreciate the input.

Am I to assume you are talking about the Mazdaspeed 3 turbo?

Perhaps a better start would be an NC miata motor. Cosworth has a cyl head for it, and there are cam shafts available as well. I hear that they are making good power from that motor.

I have been using an Electromotive on my current car, and I do not think I would fool with the factory ECU any way. The Electromotive is universal, and the only thing that I would worry about is building a crank trigger.

The reason that I want to put an NC motor in the car is that my prefered method of racing has been drag racing. Some classes require that you use a motor from a like model car. However, if you have an older model that has a smaller and lighter frame (NA), but the newest model has a larger more advance engine (NC), you can take the big motor and stuff it into the old chassis, and still be legal to race.

what you means mazdaspeed3, ms6, ms3 and cx7 share same motor from oil pan to turbine. only diffirence is ms6 is awd, ms3 is failwd, and cx7 is either failwd with same everything as ms3 or awd which drivetrain is very similar to ms6. Another difference is their ECU's.

You know your current Mazda motors.

What makes you think that being a newer motor is better? It's not like you can't get into the 300+ whp on a 1.6.

To be competitive you better be packin some cubic inches. The competition sure will. In drag racing, motors are like tits, they can't be too big!

whatever you do with that motor, my motor will still make more output.

just remember, it's stupid to do something different than everyone else.:jerkit:. this forum is getting gayer

going fast around a racetrack > spending months doing something "different"...just buy an apple so you can be different.

Just because it *can be done doesn't mean you should do it.

If you:
1. Have lots of money for a project.
2. Have lots of time for a project.
3. Have mad skillz required by said project.
4. Have patience (and understanding SO) for a long, difficult project.
and
5. Just really want to do something different for the sake of doing it despite conventional reasoning.

....then this would be a great project.

If you're missing any one of those, I'd consider something more conventional. If you meet all the above criteria, then #5 is as good a reason as any.

I'm pretty sure this guy got laughed at when he talked about putting a V6 in a Miata to chase down Vettes, when he could have done the easy thing and just used a Vette motor.



Say what you will...but that is one badass motherfuckin' car.

engine swaps which make sense in a miata:
SBC
S2K
Hayabusa (I want this, so bad)

even if you were right, the op didn't mention anything about tracking the car.

and i only eat granny smith apples

The point is MZR is unreliable as is, and NC 2.0 will cost an arm and a first born child for a bit more power out the crate.

theres a built up 8second miata with a BP and gt40 I think look it up.

I drag race, and no, that's not the case. You race for your class. Why would I want to run in the 9 second range if I'm trying to stay in the street / modified / or pro class? And if displacement is your only concern, put a turbo ford 5 litre in there. It's an old motor design, but tons of potential, cheap, easy to find...

You know that for a fact do you.

Ive seen that car is all over you tube. If im not mistaken it ran a high 8 O_O. I remember reading the spec list. The motor was bored out 2.0 stroker.

OP the advice or comment that youre gonna get from most of us is the old if you have

the chaching $$$
Time
Knowledge.. ect

Then go ahead, shit is your investment. However if you dont have the things mentioned above then v8 is the way to go for a swap that is relatively cheap, efficient, and will be great at drag racing. 5.0 (stock) miata come in the high 12s and Ls1 (stock) in the high 11s. Also ive seen a small block chevy pull a mid 10.

Im not saying dont do it, I guess we are just pointing out other options that have proven to be efficient and cost effective. At the end however is your investment, so do as you please. :wavey:

I want to see a Ferrari swap, Im just saying :dunno:

judging from your signature...yes.

Looks like Hyper is back with a new handle.

:2cents: I looked at the rulebook for the IDRA. It read, and I quote "Engine manufacturer must match vehicle chassis manufacturer. Brother subsitutions are allowed such as Lexus/Toyota, Nissan/Infiniti, Honda/Acura. Domestic manufactured engines are limited to four cylinder and OHC six cylinders." No Chevys in Mazdas allowed here. I am pretty sure the same go for other sanctioning bodies (in drag racing).

This was true for all classes except for the bracket and outlaw classes. Personally I am not a fan of Bracket racing. It is not as fun to watch and does not get the attention as heads up racing. The outlaw class is basicly a pro mod like class that will require an investment of 100's of thousands of dollars (car, support, etc).

If you never plan to compete, than I would most certainly agree that the other swaps are the way to go.

My goal is to compete in a heads up class. To have any hope of winning, you have to have a motor approaching the maximum cubic inches. An older Miata would be more competive with a developed NC motor, because there is the potential of getting more cubes out of it.

That is why I think someone should try the swap. It will take a lot of development time and money. But it would be great to see the Miata kick some Honda ass.:skid:

I think you should stfu and leave.

OMG why are you so retarded? Have you even tried bracket racing? At least it requires skill and some amount of brain cells. It's not merely "may the fastest car win" fest. And seriously, have you ever actually drag raced a car? You'll find bracket racing is exciting, and at least gives everyone a hope of winning. And bracket racing has huge favor with professionals as well.

And yes, many different tracks will have different rules, as classes. A friend of mine races in mini stock, and the rules for that are it has to be a SOHC engine, carburated, must be the same manufacturer motor, and for every litre of displacement you have to have X amount of weight in your car... They normally try to make an even playing field, so they punish larger displacement by adding more weight. So really, a 1.6L can compete with a 2.4... it's how it works.

And I agree, just GTFO.

PS - competing with Honda's with a mazda engine (except for rotary) is futile. Honda has a great design, and the support is insane. There are many 1000HP honda civics out there. I don't care what you say, Mazda does not make a block in conventional form that can be built to that. Your only hope if staying with mazda is some 3 or 4 rotor setup.

:fawk: What seems to be your problem?

you're watering down my forum with ricer bullshit.

Lad, I have been drag racing for 15 years. I have gone faster than you ever will, and my normally aspirated miata will blow the doors off your piece of shit.

Before you act like you know something about me, you may want to ask a few questions.

You know, I came on this forum to learn a trick or two. And you know, I might teach you a trick or two as well. I was giving arguement as to why it would be a good idea. Maybe it is not a good idea, but act like something other than an 8 year old will you?

Obviously you have 15 years of experience drag racing, but being the trophy bitch doesn't really count.

How many months did you spend "doing something the same"? :giggle:

Doing an engine swap because you want to is the only reason you need IMO. Some actually like the problem solving and fabrication that goes along with a project like an engine swap vs. mail ordering a kit and installing it over a couple of weekends.

I see a :ban?: in your near future...

Why...because he's persistent about out-of-the ordinary swaps?

He did poz up the LS1 swap thread...but other than that he's just an annoying new(to us)b with unconventional ideas.

Because im an instigator. Im not against any swap, like i said before is not my money so i dont really care :dunno:. As a matter of fact i suggested a ferrari swap :laugh:

That's cool...just kinda tired of us running off everyone that doesn't agree with us.

I've also seen us run off a couple of experienced older guys that were just lacking forum etiquette in the past few seasons.

I was responsible for one of them...and feel like an asshat for it.

Well most internet forums are not known for their tolerance. You just have to shrug off the intial wave of e thugging and go about your business.

I understand the need for a larger displacement motor but the other factor in your MZR choice is the engine management. with direct injection you may be limited to factory ecu with something like the Accessport from Cobb. There may be some standalones that can control DI motors but I am not aware of them.
For drag racing a 3 rotor 20B would be really cool but might not be legal as it was not sold in US.
Personally I dream of a Hartley V8 with twin turbos but since I could just buy a porsche GT3 for the same price I'll let you know.

I have never been on a forum in my life, I will work on the etiquette.

:noob: lol

Like kaisersone and myself have said MZR will be a nightmare to get running, theres one guy in Ukraine who is currently working on cracking the mazdaspeed6 ECU (AWD) Id guess you would use mazdaspeed3 or FWD CX-7 ECU in a miata for it being 2 wheel drive not 4.

Either way, I would love to see it done, but over 2+ years of personal involvement in MZR engines I would advise you to stay away from it.

I will heed the advice for now. However, surely time will allow development that will make the motor more competitive, easier to get parts for, and cheaper.

lol...we really don't need a banstick yet, we'll run him off soon.

Want to go drag racing? Buy another car. You're sounding like a 15yr old keyboard cowboy with ideas and no money...or logic There is another Miata engine that has the same output as the NC's 2.0L and drops right into the NA....but obviously you're so stuck on the MZ i'm not going to bother telling you. There is another 2.0L 4 cylinder that isn't too hard of a swap into a Miata....hell, there has even been one guy who had a V6.

I don't really see anyone doing too much with the MZ because of Mazda's retarded ECU. No one is going to care to really crack it because there are much better swaps out there for the money.