Need Help With Cooling System
07-14-2017, 02:14 PM
#41
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The two spal fans that come with the FM stage 2 airflow kit are pretty baller. This is the smaller of the two :3010.1522 It still kicks much ***. The larger one is the 30102029. I would recommend either of them to you. They are not inexpensive because they are real fans. One of them set to turn on at 95c or even a bit lower will be very effective.
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07-14-2017, 02:26 PM
#42
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There is no "best" fan. There is the one that is appropriate for your application. Go to Spal's web site, click into the area for the fan diameter you need, and click on the specs link for each fan you think might be suitable. Find one with the dimensions that will fit, with a current draw that is appropriate for your circuit, and that pulls enough CFM for your application.
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07-14-2017, 09:03 PM
#44
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Cognitive dissonance.
This is still the correct answer. You need to measure how much clearance you have and pick the highest flowing fan that will fit in the space provided, based upon the published specs. I don't know the maximum current draw of the fan circuit off the top of my head, but I think I remember the fuse or relay being 25A. Find out the current capacity of that circuit and choose a fan that draws a lower amount of current, preferably with maybe 5A of headroom.
This is still the correct answer. You need to measure how much clearance you have and pick the highest flowing fan that will fit in the space provided, based upon the published specs. I don't know the maximum current draw of the fan circuit off the top of my head, but I think I remember the fuse or relay being 25A. Find out the current capacity of that circuit and choose a fan that draws a lower amount of current, preferably with maybe 5A of headroom.
sshamrockk you have options and Steve Dallas is right on. You can buy fans off the shelf from FM or the like. While it seems like you could just copy someone else's Miata fan, each car is still going to have differences with the charge pipes coolant hoses and so on. If you are going to make your own shroud then you should be ok measuring for which fan you want. If you aren't going to make your own shroud then you're pretty much back to buying what's available off the shelf for Miatas. If you're ever at the junkyard I'd encourage you to look at the fan on a Volvo around year 2000 or so. The fan itself is held on the shroud with four long screws and is pretty much a low profile high flow fan itself. It comes with an isolated relay pack and double 30A fuse holder. Since it's a two speed I think it actually only draws 30A max, at a time. The shroud can also be trimmed down fairly low profile though I have not tried to fit one on a Miata.
For stock wiring, very crude way is to compare the wire thickness of the fan motor and even the size of the fan motor. If it's comparable to the stock fan you might be ok. Better way is to find out the current draw of the fans. If you try to use too large of a fan with stock wiring you'll blow fuses or maybe burn something or have reduced performance. Mistakes, blown fuses and burnt wires are common with aftermarket fans I'd say hence the expensive relay kits and such.
For stock wiring, very crude way is to compare the wire thickness of the fan motor and even the size of the fan motor. If it's comparable to the stock fan you might be ok. Better way is to find out the current draw of the fans. If you try to use too large of a fan with stock wiring you'll blow fuses or maybe burn something or have reduced performance. Mistakes, blown fuses and burnt wires are common with aftermarket fans I'd say hence the expensive relay kits and such.
Thanks, didn't mean to be so vague in my first post,
I don't think I'll be running a shroud as it seems not usually neccesary. Ill look into the two fans that Mobius reccomended, and see what would fit my car better.
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07-15-2017, 07:01 PM
#45
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Messed around with this a bit today. Set fan turn on temp to 205F or 96C, helped a bit took a bit longer for coolant to get to 102C. Still working on 2nd fan, reroute etc.
One thing i noticed though is that my coolant stays at 97-99C all the time while moving. It just cant come back to 95C, which is what i saw it at before. I don't know if its because ambient was 25-30C or what. Random question, would advanced ignition timing make the engine run hotter?
One thing i noticed though is that my coolant stays at 97-99C all the time while moving. It just cant come back to 95C, which is what i saw it at before. I don't know if its because ambient was 25-30C or what. Random question, would advanced ignition timing make the engine run hotter?
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07-15-2017, 11:32 PM
#48
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Can confirm retarded timing can make a car run hot. Had a friend finish his motor rebuild in his Amx, how many of you even know what that is, and we accidently set timing too far retarded, aside from the car running like crap, it overheated despite a 3 core Radiator and 2 spal fans.
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07-16-2017, 11:18 AM
#49
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Ok i advanced my timing map from basemap values a bit since last year. That is why i asked.
I did not have the grill off, will take it off for driving this week and see the difference. I know before this grill went on i had one that was a bit less restrictive but coolant temps were not any different. Also drove with out a grill for a bit before this one was installed and temps from what i saw were not any different. Maybe im overthinking it a bit here but with the grill that stops bugs and rocks from flying in and clogging up and damaging my IC and rad fins, not good for flow and cooling, with the grill just give it a quick clean weekly. Pros and cons i guess. Still fully agree with you guys that it is a flow restriction.
Im not sure how much the airflow while driving would have been an issue yesterday probably half the problem, or if it was just the hot ambient temp making it harder to cool things down was around 25-30C. Obviously my heat exchangers are not effective.
I did find out from previous owner of car that this rad fan is not too old, was installed in 2012 with a new stock rad. This was when car was stock. The fan looked newer to me based off its physical condition, and it pulls hard i can feel the hot air under the car if im in drivers seat and put hand under car. So i think this one is ok, just looking to add the second one.
How much of a difference in temp did you guys see before and after reroute install?
I did not have the grill off, will take it off for driving this week and see the difference. I know before this grill went on i had one that was a bit less restrictive but coolant temps were not any different. Also drove with out a grill for a bit before this one was installed and temps from what i saw were not any different. Maybe im overthinking it a bit here but with the grill that stops bugs and rocks from flying in and clogging up and damaging my IC and rad fins, not good for flow and cooling, with the grill just give it a quick clean weekly. Pros and cons i guess. Still fully agree with you guys that it is a flow restriction.
Im not sure how much the airflow while driving would have been an issue yesterday probably half the problem, or if it was just the hot ambient temp making it harder to cool things down was around 25-30C. Obviously my heat exchangers are not effective.
I did find out from previous owner of car that this rad fan is not too old, was installed in 2012 with a new stock rad. This was when car was stock. The fan looked newer to me based off its physical condition, and it pulls hard i can feel the hot air under the car if im in drivers seat and put hand under car. So i think this one is ok, just looking to add the second one.
How much of a difference in temp did you guys see before and after reroute install?
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07-16-2017, 11:42 AM
#50
Re-routes don't actually help overall cooling, they just make the head temperature more even to prevent cyl 4 from melting before the rest.
Even an open mesh is still 50% blocked...... You wouldn't tape up half the nose opening and expect the car to still cool sufficiently would you?
If you want to do a quick check to see if airflow helps the car stay cooler when moving just pull the hood off and go for a drive. Takes 2 min with a buddy.
Even an open mesh is still 50% blocked...... You wouldn't tape up half the nose opening and expect the car to still cool sufficiently would you?
If you want to do a quick check to see if airflow helps the car stay cooler when moving just pull the hood off and go for a drive. Takes 2 min with a buddy.
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07-16-2017, 05:31 PM
#52
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Car ran fine stock. Only came with one fan, since no AC. I have retained this fan and it is set up on the new rad. Ppl have suggested adding a second fan for more flow at idle, and changing the motor on my current fan in case its old and tired. So all good there, im looking in to this.
Will run without the grill and watch my coolant temp, to see if there is any difference.
Once i added the turbo is when things started getting hot. Just the turbo itself makes things hotter, IC in front of rad restricts flow etc. I just need to make things more efficient to compensate for this.
My tune is ok and conservative id say, only advanced timing a bit through out the map. I wanted to ask in case adding timing could make it run hotter. Just getting ideas for what to do and doing one thing at a time to see if there are any gains.
Thanks for all the interest and feedback in this thread, lots of help and great info!
Will run without the grill and watch my coolant temp, to see if there is any difference.
Once i added the turbo is when things started getting hot. Just the turbo itself makes things hotter, IC in front of rad restricts flow etc. I just need to make things more efficient to compensate for this.
My tune is ok and conservative id say, only advanced timing a bit through out the map. I wanted to ask in case adding timing could make it run hotter. Just getting ideas for what to do and doing one thing at a time to see if there are any gains.
Thanks for all the interest and feedback in this thread, lots of help and great info!
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07-17-2017, 04:37 PM
#54
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When you take the grille off, put it in the passenger seat and go out on the highway with the top down. At about 60mph hold it up in the airflow above the windshield and see if it blocks any airflow. I bet you won't even be able to hold onto it because it catches so much air. Just food for thought.
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07-17-2017, 10:03 PM
#55
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No doubt grill restricts airflow. Drove with out it today, being completely honest it made no difference in temps from what i saw before. Had laptop hooked up during morning commute and afternoon, was around a 8-10C difference in ambient temp between morning and afternoon. Coolant was 93-95 during cruising in morning and 95-97 in afternoon. Was maybe a 1 minute difference between morn/aft for how long it took to reach 102C coolant temp at idle. Had fan kick on at 96C. Within 3 minutes of stopping coolant reaches 102C, probably keeps going tuner studio gauge reads 102C max.
From what i know the 195 thermostat starts to open at 195 and is fully open by 212? Shouldn't my engine coolant temp go down a bit once its flowing through, would rad coolant not be a bit cooler? This is where i keep thinking a 180 might help, so coolant does not stay so long in engine.
Second rad fan is needed asap, right now only half the rad is getting cooled. No way just the one fan can keep up with keeping the whole rad cool.
From what i know the 195 thermostat starts to open at 195 and is fully open by 212? Shouldn't my engine coolant temp go down a bit once its flowing through, would rad coolant not be a bit cooler? This is where i keep thinking a 180 might help, so coolant does not stay so long in engine.
Second rad fan is needed asap, right now only half the rad is getting cooled. No way just the one fan can keep up with keeping the whole rad cool.
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07-18-2017, 07:30 AM
#56
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System designed like yours with only one fan can actually have the spent hot air coming out of the fan pulled backwards through the other half of the radiator and back through the fan again when sitting still. I would either want two fans or a larger single fan and proper shrouding across the entire back of the radiator.
Again, I don't know that your thermostat is opening completely at the prescribed temperature. They are not foolproof devices and they do fail. They fail open, they fail closed, they fail to open at the proper temperature, or they fail to open completely. I have seen every one of these failure modes and have seen some of them several times, having spent years working in an auto parts store and turning wrenches in auto repair shops.
I would definitely move to 180 for the additional room between operating temperature and overheating temperature and would heed Joe Perez's warning from 10 years ago to avoid the Stant super stat. I would also make sure that it had a tickle valve or a small hole drilled at the 12 o'clock position to allow air to escape to prevent hot spots and help burping, but that's just years of experience and reading talking. Replacement thermostat and a gasket used to be under $12 and if you don't have a reroute you can put one in in about 15 minutes.
Again, I don't know that your thermostat is opening completely at the prescribed temperature. They are not foolproof devices and they do fail. They fail open, they fail closed, they fail to open at the proper temperature, or they fail to open completely. I have seen every one of these failure modes and have seen some of them several times, having spent years working in an auto parts store and turning wrenches in auto repair shops.
I would definitely move to 180 for the additional room between operating temperature and overheating temperature and would heed Joe Perez's warning from 10 years ago to avoid the Stant super stat. I would also make sure that it had a tickle valve or a small hole drilled at the 12 o'clock position to allow air to escape to prevent hot spots and help burping, but that's just years of experience and reading talking. Replacement thermostat and a gasket used to be under $12 and if you don't have a reroute you can put one in in about 15 minutes.
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07-18-2017, 08:47 AM
#57
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Everything sixshooter said, plus...
That grill is blocking airflow at speed, but not at idle. The grill has a maximum flow rate, and your single fan is not enough to exceed that rate, when sitting still. As already mentioned, your cooling problems at idle are caused by not enough fan / shroud.
Side note: Did not know there are problems with Stant Superstats. Will research. I have used them for years without no problems, and IIRC, emilio includes them with his re-route kit.
That grill is blocking airflow at speed, but not at idle. The grill has a maximum flow rate, and your single fan is not enough to exceed that rate, when sitting still. As already mentioned, your cooling problems at idle are caused by not enough fan / shroud.
Side note: Did not know there are problems with Stant Superstats. Will research. I have used them for years without no problems, and IIRC, emilio includes them with his re-route kit.
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07-18-2017, 12:36 PM
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Wait is that true? That is honestly a really crappy policy. I guess this is why I only buy the cheapest aluminum radiator on eBay or a TSE one. If the $100 goes bad, I don't feel bad at replacing it. If the TSE one has issues up front I know Savington will stand behind it.
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