Need input from E85 powered miatas!!!! - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Engine Performance This section is for discussion on all engine building related questions.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-30-2011, 03:28 AM   #21
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,782
Total Cats: 119
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
The fuel you are burning is probably not going to make that noise go away. It is just noise from the engine mechanical components, most of it from the lifters IIRC. It is not 'knock' but engine noise that a knock sensor can mistake for knock.
OK thank you for a useful response.


Everyone else, why don't you just go back to sucking dicks.
Faeflora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2011, 09:39 AM   #22
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,367
Total Cats: 1,332
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
It is not 'knock' but engine noise that a crappy knock sensor can mistake for knock.
FTFY. If you have noise problems through 4500-5500, the solution is frequency/RPM based filtration, not ignoring the damn sensor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeflora View Post
Everyone else, why don't you just go back to sucking dicks.
Call me when you grenade your motor after ignoring your knock sensor through the torque peak.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2011, 10:22 AM   #23
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,889
Total Cats: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
FTFY. If you have noise problems through 4500-5500, the solution is frequency/RPM based filtration, not ignoring the damn sensor.
Agreed. This is why for example TI makes very nice DSP ICs for knock sensing that the OEMs use in their ECUs and tune for a specific engine.
ZX-Tex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2011, 11:55 AM   #24
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 407
Default

I believe one of the planned features of the next full number release of the megasquirt 3 firmware is the ability to window and bandpass the knock input. I'm not sure what the plans are for sensitivity versus RPM curves, but the windowing and filtering alone should make a significant difference compared to a simple noise threshold.
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 08:51 AM   #25
Newb
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Jackson Ga.
Posts: 28
Total Cats: 0
Default

I know on my evo8 and early evos the knock sensor was to sensitive. The tuner that tuned my car in some cases would change values to "de-sensitize" the knock sensor. Can that not be done in this case?
dingo7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 11:29 AM   #26
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,196
Total Cats: 2,584
Default

It is literally what they just talked about in the posts before yours
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 12:42 PM   #27
Junior Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 397
Total Cats: 9
Default

Eventually it won't matter as much as companies will develop spark plug associated pressure tranducers that will allow direct detection of the pressure spikes associated with knock not just the vibrations. I think NGK is working on this but I don't know what the time frame for commercial introduction is(edit they have a picture on their website that says in development). But for now filters and signal processing are all that is available.
If you are really worried about this buy a more sophisticated knock detection system like Phormula or Gizzmo Kmon or sometehing like that.
kaisersoze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 12:49 PM   #28
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,196
Total Cats: 2,584
Default

Knock sensing spark plugs? hot damn I haven't heard of that yet lol.

And sav you keep referring to the stock NB knock sensor as crap, what do you suggest is NOT crap for our cars and what are you using on your race car? IIRC you're using the same stock sensor that we are.

Quote:
more sophisticated knock detection system like Phormula or Gizzmo Kmon or sometehing like that
Do you know of anyone on here (or anyone with a turbo miata for that matter) using something like this?
I'm curious how it compares to the stocker.
Feedback from someone using them would be great.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 01:05 PM   #29
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,889
Total Cats: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Knock sensing spark plugs? hot damn I haven't heard of that yet lol.
.
I know someone (not at NGK) who is working on it. It is a completely different way of sensing knock; it is pretty cool. I am not sure how much I can repeat (proprietary) so I will keep my mouth shut on the details. But if you google it I'll bet something will turn up. AFAIK it is still developmental technology and is not mainstream yet.
ZX-Tex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 01:18 PM   #30
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,923
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Do you know of anyone on here (or anyone with a turbo miata for that matter) using something like this?
I'm curious how it compares to the stocker.
Feedback from someone using them would be great.
I used some of the Phormula products when my car was tuned on the dyno, they do everything that they claim they do. Anytime they are mentioned on this forum, people run away because they aren't cheap or free.
JayL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 03:41 PM   #31
Junior Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 397
Total Cats: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
I know someone (not at NGK) who is working on it. It is a completely different way of sensing knock; it is pretty cool. I am not sure how much I can repeat (proprietary) so I will keep my mouth shut on the details. But if you google it I'll bet something will turn up. AFAIK it is still developmental technology and is not mainstream yet.
Not quite mainstream. There are several companies like optrand and Kistler that make these kind of sensors mostly for engineers
http://www.optrand.com/products.htm
this is the NGK picture which indicates it is probably similar to the optrand products http://www.ngkntk.co.jp/english/prod...thers/gps.html

there is a company that I know of that has taken these sensors and made commercial packages for test bench(read professional dyno) or in car set ups
http://www.tfxengine.com/. This would be the ultimate knock detection setup
kaisersoze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 05:25 PM   #32
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,889
Total Cats: 28
Default

I did not mean the pressure sensors, though that works too. I meant something more like this (from Delphi):
http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto...gnsys/ionized/
Ion Sense knock detection eliminates vibration-based knock sensors for lower system cost and improved knock sensitivity and detection. Knock detection is robust to valve train and other mechanical noises.

Looks like it is more mainstream than I thought.
ZX-Tex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 05:46 PM   #33
Junior Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 397
Total Cats: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
I did not mean the pressure sensors, though that works too. I meant something more like this (from Delphi):
http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto...gnsys/ionized/
Ion Sense knock detection eliminates vibration-based knock sensors for lower system cost and improved knock sensitivity and detection. Knock detection is robust to valve train and other mechanical noises.

Looks like it is more mainstream than I thought.
Yeah I forget about that. Don't some Harley-davidson motorcycles use some form of that method?
Very cool in any case.
kaisersoze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2011, 05:16 AM   #34
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,367
Total Cats: 1,332
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
And sav you keep referring to the stock NB knock sensor as crap, what do you suggest is NOT crap for our cars and what are you using on your race car? IIRC you're using the same stock sensor that we are.
Saturn sensor with on-board frequency filtering (thanks J_Man for the setup info), connected to an AEM with RPM and timing window filtering.

For all the swooning done over MS3, I kind of assumed it had good knock control - really sad to hear they still haven't done it. The new AEM boxes combine the RPM filtering they had before with on-board user-adjustable frequency filtering. Super bitchin'.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2011, 03:43 PM   #35
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Saturn sensor with on-board frequency filtering (thanks J_Man for the setup info), connected to an AEM with RPM and timing window filtering.

For all the swooning done over MS3, I kind of assumed it had good knock control - really sad to hear they still haven't done it. The new AEM boxes combine the RPM filtering they had before with on-board user-adjustable frequency filtering. Super bitchin'.
The MS3 is still relatively new. They only released the 1.0 firmware on Jan 12 of this year.

Knock windowing (unsure on freq based filters) is due for 2.0 along with 4-cam VVT and who knows what else.

But you're right. As of this moment, it essentially has zero knock control beyond "some box says there is knock so I will do X".
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2011, 02:22 PM   #36
Newb
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Jackson Ga.
Posts: 28
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
It is literally what they just talked about in the posts before yours
my bad...
dingo7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2011, 02:24 PM   #37
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,196
Total Cats: 2,584
Default

no worries. I'm kinda sad that the ms2 doesn't have windowed/filtered knock sensing.
that's so far the 1st thing since switching from the adaptronic that I don't like about it.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 04:45 PM   #38
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
triple88a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,131
Total Cats: 598
Default

18psi sorry for grave digging but why did you decide to go from adaptronic to ms2?
triple88a is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 05:03 PM   #39
I'm Miserable!
iTrader: (33)
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,066
Total Cats: -3
Default

is this natural knock sound something thats more common with the 99+ motors?
my 1.6 is smooth through out the whole power band.
railz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 05:19 PM   #40
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,196
Total Cats: 2,584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
18psi sorry for grave digging but why did you decide to go from adaptronic to ms2?
couple reasons, many of which were addressed with teh adap 440.
fully pnp (didn't require a big *** adapter harness)
internal map sensor
easier to set up
better startup
better idle
overall much easier to work with and user friendly
tons and tons of info and writeups and faq's
MUCH more user support.
Travis was great and helped us a ton, but when there was something he didnt know, we were pretty much fucked. had to figure it out on our own.
few other reasons, all of which were minor, but all that **** added up and I got tired of it. decided to try the diypnp and LOVE it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by railz View Post
is this natural knock sound something thats more common with the 99+ motors?
my 1.6 is smooth through out the whole power band.
as far as I know yes. 99-00.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MS PNP requires reading and following directions??? satisfied MEGAsquirt 141 10-06-2015 11:44 AM
starting issue Johnny Tater Engine Performance 3 09-23-2015 07:10 PM
1.8, C30-74 Rotrex, 9psi, 235WHP/190WTQ (E85) Lincoln Logs Dynos and timesheets 4 09-23-2015 01:26 PM
mm0105 TABLE SWITCHING WIRING? slomiata MEGAsquirt 2 09-15-2015 01:54 PM
WTB parts for HPDE car Voltwings WTB 5 09-11-2015 09:23 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:18 AM.