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Old 08-31-2011, 03:08 PM   #1
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Default Nitrous and Turbo

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...47#post5345147

This is the thread I started on m.net about it. I post there alot since for whatever reason, this site runs slower than dog hell on my work computer.

Cliff notes: I found a direct port nitrous kit for 250 dollars, a pretty nice one.

I was planning on running a 2860 or 2871 turbo, and swinging for about 350whp. I am building a tough engine, and it seems like a waste to only make this much power, so.....

I want to make about 350whp give or take, and then have nitrous on top of it. Has anyone done this over here? I would be happy with a 100 shot. Everyone on m.net says I should but a giant assed turbo on and use nitrous to spool it, but I drive this car on the street alot, so I don't want to be spooling my turbo with nitrous.


I really just want to have the nitrous incase I run across something really fast that is driven by a *****, or when I decide to go run the quarter mile, and I would remove it for autocross. SJMarcy also commented over there, so feel free to eat your heart out on that, but I have been ignoring him.
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:32 PM   #2
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i think methanol injection is much safer and cheaper, nitrous puts alot of strain on the motor instantaneously, with methanol you can run it daily and progressively, it will help prevent detention and alot easier to tune. now i have no experience personally running meth, but its my future plan and i have done some reading on it.
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:41 PM   #3
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Your motor/clutch/trans better be friggen nuke proof because the hit of a 300+ wtq is already pretty hard, and with nitrous it would be like getting dropkicked by a train. Also you better be damn good at tuning....

IMO I'd just get a turbo that would support 450, then have a low boost/high boost settings with a switch.

But if you wanna be a badass and run nitrous Ill definitely subscribe to the biuld thread
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:54 PM   #4
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I have no direct experience with nitrous, but my understanding is that on a turbo motor rule of thumb is you double the hit, so a 100 shot would actually act like an extra 200hp. And going with a wet shot will be a lot safer than dry ( I don't see you mentioning either so just tossing that out).
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:10 PM   #5
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First of all, forget about running 100hp of nitrous with the turbo.

The "hp shot" is just a general reference that is measured on larger motors that are normally aspirated. When you mix nitrous with other power adders, it can often increase the horsepower per given "shot". Also, smaller motors will make more power per advertised shot of nitrous.

The key to using nitrous successfully is to start very small. Considering the fact that you are under 2 liters with a turbo, I would start at around 35 hp and work your way up as you build confidence in your ability to tune it.

Keep in mind that you will not be able to run a tune that is optimized for your turbo, and expect to run the nitrous on top of that. It is a sure fire way to blow it up. Same would go for an N/A motor.

You have to run 2 seperate tunes one for your set up, and one for your set up plus nitrous. That usually blows the ability to "hit it" when ever you want, unless you run the tune all the time that is optimized for nitrous. I do not know what ECU you are running, but some can automatically switch to the nitrous tune at the flip of a switch. I do not offer much help in the way of ECUs, as you should already imagine why.
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:17 PM   #6
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Overcomplicated and kinda risky.
And I doubt that MS has the ability to switch maps without a laptop.
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Overcomplicated and kinda risky.
And I doubt that MS has the ability to switch maps without a laptop.
Actually the MS can do table switching based on one of the inputs being triggered. The feature is specifically targeted towards nitrous cars.
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:39 PM   #8
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You're right. Completely forgot there was that "Nitrious" button on "more options" tab or whatever.
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Old 08-31-2011, 06:07 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewdesigns View Post
I have no direct experience with nitrous, but my understanding is that on a turbo motor rule of thumb is you double the hit, so a 100 shot would actually act like an extra 200hp. And going with a wet shot will be a lot safer than dry ( I don't see you mentioning either so just tossing that out).
I had no clue about how it interacted with the power adders. It will be wet, direct port. I am assuming that I would have to use larger fuel jets due to the E85?

Quote:
Originally Posted by miata2fast View Post
First of all, forget about running 100hp of nitrous with the turbo.

The "hp shot" is just a general reference that is measured on larger motors that are normally aspirated. When you mix nitrous with other power adders, it can often increase the horsepower per given "shot". Also, smaller motors will make more power per advertised shot of nitrous.

The key to using nitrous successfully is to start very small. Considering the fact that you are under 2 liters with a turbo, I would start at around 35 hp and work your way up as you build confidence in your ability to tune it.

Keep in mind that you will not be able to run a tune that is optimized for your turbo, and expect to run the nitrous on top of that. It is a sure fire way to blow it up. Same would go for an N/A motor.

You have to run 2 seperate tunes one for your set up, and one for your set up plus nitrous. That usually blows the ability to "hit it" when ever you want, unless you run the tune all the time that is optimized for nitrous. I do not know what ECU you are running, but some can automatically switch to the nitrous tune at the flip of a switch. I do not offer much help in the way of ECUs, as you should already imagine why.
Ok forgotten. So, what would be the main difference in the maps, less timing up top? More fuel? I am figuring I would have to get a good turbo map. Then make a separate nitrous map, all on the dyno. Atleast that is what I had planned for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_Ciesielski View Post
Actually the MS can do table switching based on one of the inputs being triggered. The feature is specifically targeted towards nitrous cars.
True that.
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Old 08-31-2011, 06:25 PM   #10
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Have you considered using a larger turbo w/ a quick spool valve from Sound Performance?

The results with those have been phenomenal.
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Old 08-31-2011, 06:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viperormiata View Post
Have you considered using a larger turbo w/ a quick spool valve from Sound Performance?

The results with those have been phenomenal.
No I have heard mixed things about qsv's. Enlighten me?
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Old 08-31-2011, 06:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicksdigmiatas View Post
I had no clue about how it interacted with the power adders. It will be wet, direct port. I am assuming that I would have to use larger fuel jets due to the E85?

The nitrous kit manufactures have that all figured out. They will guide you in the right direction. You may have to regulate the fuel pressure to 6 psi. Things may have changed since I have been full on with nitrous, so again, check with the manufacturer.



Ok forgotten. So, what would be the main difference in the maps, less timing up top? More fuel? I am figuring I would have to get a good turbo map. Then make a separate nitrous map, all on the dyno. Atleast that is what I had planned for.

It would mainly involve timing. Fuel is adjusted via the fuel jet on the fogger. If you have a seperate fuel system for the nitrous, you can tweak it that way as well.

Super fine tuning would be via the ECU if you encounter problems at different rpms and boost levels.




True that.
Also, I noticed that you have a $250 nitrous kit. Be careful with old solenoids. If you have a failure on the fuel side......Toast.

Be prepared to make an investment in quality hardware. There are all kinds of ways to make it safer. It costs some money, but it is well worth it. There are a lot of half assers out there that have made the costly mistake of having a simple and unreliable nitrous electrical system, hence the nitrous reputation of being risky. It is like having a giant turbo and running bandaids to manage the fuel and timing.
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Old 08-31-2011, 08:10 PM   #13
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Why not just run more boost?
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Old 09-01-2011, 12:28 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicksdigmiatas View Post
I had no clue about how it interacted with the power adders. It will be wet, direct port. I am assuming that I would have to use larger fuel jets due to the E85?
I would assume that you'd need to scale the jets accordingly, up perhaps 30% from what you'd need with gasoline.
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Old 09-01-2011, 01:32 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicksdigmiatas View Post
No I have heard mixed things about qsv's. Enlighten me?
I'm not sure why you have mixed feelings. People have been running these things and the performance has been flawless. Even the drag racing people have been using these things w/ 2-step programs and don't have any issues. Just gobs of torque and friendly power band.



From the video:
Difference with and without QSV:
Boost --- From 11psi to 21psi @ 3500rpm
Horsepower --- From 260whp to 360whp @ 3900rpm
Torque --- From 340wtq to 475wtq @ 3500rpm

Gains:
Boost --- 500rpm spool increase
Horsepower --- 95whp increase @ 3500rpm
Torque --- 135wtq increase @ 3500rpm

Notes:
300wtq @ 2800rpm!!!
300whp @ 3400rpm!!!

500+whp from 4000rpm to redline!!!
28psi @ 3900rpm!!!
QSV gains as early as 2000rpm
Torque!!! More TQ than HP in every E85 pull
Nearly 5000rpm effective and usable powerband (from 2500rpm to 7400rpm)
Peak TQ @ 4300rpm



Take a look around online and you can find people making gains like this with almost any car.



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Old 09-01-2011, 08:56 AM   #16
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I ran nitrous on my first turbo Miata with an FMII setup 2554 and a 50 shot wet setup. This was back in 1999. Ran it fine on the street with an average turbo map and some pulled timing. I made 260 ft-lbs and 280 whp on about 14 lbs of boost. This was using the crappy Link ECU. I picked up about 65 whp on the 50 shot. Spool was really fun. Felt like a big displacement motor.

Unfortunately I dialed up the boost and timing at the dragstrip because my 1.6 had a tone of miles on it 150K so I wasn't too concerned about blowing it up and sure as **** I vented the block/oil pan with a nice chunk of rod. Never went back to the nitrous even though it was fun because it was pretty expensive to fill the tank every week.
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Old 09-01-2011, 11:26 AM   #17
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Must be slow due to the site blocking. At work I get tons of pop ups blocking content with security certificate errors.

Does not matter how many times I select "Do not show this prompt again", it still gives me the error messages. All other forums that I go to are a breeze to navigate.

FYI:

He bought the nitrous kit.

Last edited by mazpr; 09-01-2011 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 09-01-2011, 11:40 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viperormiata View Post
I'm not sure why you have mixed feelings. People have been running these things and the performance has been flawless. Even the drag racing people have been using these things w/ 2-step programs and don't have any issues. Just gobs of torque and friendly power band.
You have to keep in mind the total power/flow of the setups you posted though. I dont think it will be as significant on a miata, but I do agree that it will still help a good bit.

I'll hold my final verdict for when faggyflora finally shows us no-nonsense comparisons with vs without.
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Old 09-01-2011, 03:40 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
You have to keep in mind the total power/flow of the setups you posted though. I dont think it will be as significant on a miata, but I do agree that it will still help a good bit.

I'll hold my final verdict for when faggyflora finally shows us no-nonsense comparisons with vs without.
Yeah I was thinking about that, probably wasn't best to post only supra dyno's

The results are still great with the DSM crowd and others, however I am really interested to see how Faedicksucker makes out with his since he is running a turbo supras normally run, lol

Really shouldn't matter what motor it's used on, as it will always cut the a/r in half.
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Old 09-01-2011, 08:04 PM   #20
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I dont know if supra experts get any better than sound performance. Those guys are amazing. Quite a friendly funny place.
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