Source for titanium or inconel valves?
 

Anyone know of a manufacturer that has off the shelf inconel exhaust valves or even titanium valves? I suspect they would have to be custom made no matter the manufacturer.
Talked to supertech and titanium valves 80-90 a piece and would require 3 complete sets. Inconel would be $50 a piece and require a run of 50.
$2500 to $4500 is a steep even for me as I doubt I could unload the other sets
I'll still talk to Ferrea, Manley and a few others.
Any thoughts?

Im just curious to know why you even think you need something like this

$800 for a set of valves is "HOLY FUCK"

may I ask "Why?"

Hmm, people on this board are so cheap.
Titanium valves simply add lightness to the valvetrain making high rpm operation more reliable. I would like to have the option of spinning the motor to 8.5K or 9K to lengthen out the area between shifts etc.
I mean titanium valves are hardly that uncommon in most racing fields. A few cars like the Z06 come stock with them.
Titanium and inconel are much less likely to damaged by excessive egts
now is it worth 1500 for a set of valves to me maybe not, but doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. I currently have a setup with pretty big cams and am considering eventually going to a gtx3076 or gt35 provided it proves to be doable.

Now some call me crazy for my ideas and sending a lot of money on parts...but this? Comeon' man. Spend your money elsewhere

why?

Ferrea will make anything you want for a price.

There is a difference between being cheap, and buying excessive parts. Sure, it's a bit lighter. But the $/HP is not worth it. Better places to spend your money.

The excuse for high RPMs is silly. Plenty of miatas are running over 8500RPM with SS valves. Any more, and there are many more things you need to do to the block to be able to sustain those RPMS. If you're building a 13000RPM screamer, then go for it. 8000-9000RPM, don't bother.

I think you need to double check your research on actually using them. I talked to my machinist about this and he was adamant that it was a very bad idea. From what he says, Ti takes some very special treatments and machining to keep it from self destructing. Using leaded gas prevents a lot of those problems in full blown race cars, but are you really going to run leaded race gas exclusively? And honestly, the benefits of Ti over SS are minimal.

I don't think this is true anymore. Most manufacturers use coatings like chromium nitride or titanium nitride that have solved most of the wear problems titanium has(hell chevy warranties the Z06 and ZR1 engines for like 100K or somthing), I don't think lead had anything to do with it but I could be wrong. As for the gains, if you keep a standard redline then maybe the gains are minimal. If you have a higher revving motor you get much better control of your valve train. Less valve float, less valve spring pressure needed(hence more HP)less wear on the valve guides and seats. If I was building a DD then I probably wouldn't consider it but for a track car seeing elevated rpms it might be worth it to me.

Manley told me they could do a miata valve in inconel, I believe from the same blanks as the subaru valve. I run them in my subaru cause they were cheaper than the OEM subaru sodium filled jobbies, but obviously HEAVY compared. So I also run their springs and ti retainers.

NSFW http://i.mycommentspace.com/14/1415.jpg

Hmm... well maybe go for it then. But I still don't think Ti will give you enough benefit to justify the cost even on a fully built race car seeing high revs. Proper spring rates and a quality set of SS valves will work just as well, even though it may be just a little heavier. But, I'm in to see the results either way.

What are your power goals? Please say 600hp that would make me happy. I don't think this is necessary to rev to 8500.

This is what I think is:

Billet pump gears
Valve springs
Hutzpah?

FM says that there valve spring kit is good for 9k with no valve float.

So are OEM BP springs with enough lift on the cams.

Buying Ti valves because you don't want "float" is a silly excuse.

Titanium readily reacts with oxygen at 1,200 °C (2,190 °F) in air, and at 610 °C (1,130 °F) in pure oxygen google burning titanium

its not the uber stable shit you want in high temp situations yeah its strong but it can oxidize rapidly ie burn.

Damn people on this board really can't stand any thinking even a little outside their box. I am sure if I offered any of you a set of titanium valves for your head build for free you would say no? cue lame joke about selling them and buying SS.
I wasn't asking for a referrendum on whether you liked the price/performance of these valves. There are obviously benefits of using different materials for valves. Just because some one else says that cheap stuff is "good enough" isn't a good reason for me to choose something.
Anyway I've chatted with a few people and discussed Ti vs hollow stem SS for intake and Ti vs inconel vs sodium filled for exhaust and we'll see how it shakes out.

I would run them. Sure. Just won't spend money on them when there are more logical choices out there for even the most extreme of builds we tend to see on here.

I'm happy with my SS valves since they were inexpensive, larger than stock and meet the criteria for what I want out of my valvetrain.

Hey, prove your point about how awesome they are by giving me the free set. I swear I'll be converted.

Free inconel/Ti > stock. I'm totally with you.

I'm not saying not to run them either, there are more supporting mods that need to be done for a high rpm motor that are expensive and should also be considered, like an intake manifold, with out some type of modified intake our engines are worthless at high rpm. By the way How is yours working out nagase?

Find the right price point on some lightweight valves, and I would be up for a set in the screamer I am building. I have been considering titanium myself. I know the benefits, even tho this forum seems close minded to what the race world knows.

so does steel. we're all fucked.

dammit y8's i was trying to cause panic way to nulify the situation :hustler: :magna:

I will add to this thread and say that I have burned Supertech stainless valves twice where it looked like I went at them with a blow torch.

On the other hand with a motor with stock Mazda 323 GTR sodium filled exhaust valves I have melted Wiseco Pistons and the valves were fine.

Bob

You and Hustler are the gods of miata destruction.
Perses has nothing on you two.
I bow before your awesome destructive power.

Titanium valves will make more power than stainless valves period. It is for the same reason shim under buckets make more power. If I had the money to do it, I would already have them in my motor.

Getting the valves will not be a problem either. It is no different than specing a piston for your application. You just have to be willing to pay the price. I recall it being like 3 or more times the price of stainless. I can't remember.

I will warn however that they are a little bit more fragile than stainless. Nitrous guys are often advised to run them on the intake side only. I have no idea if that would be the case with other forced induction methods. You may want to consult with the manufacturer and tell them what kind of set up and racing you will do.

If I recall, they need to be replaced more often, and maybe the reason alot of forced induction guys do not use them. I can not recall all of the facts regarding them. It was a long time ago when I considered using them in my small block motor.

Can you get the sodium filled ones for relatively cheap? I assume they're simply a Mazda part to order. I wonder if they come in +1 anywhere.

I need more details on fancy exhaust valves. Who can get the Inco valves? I want the longest life possible.

You may also want to look at better seats. My head porter talks a lot about the seat materials removing heat from the valves. Copper Berillium (sp) comes to mind.

Valves? Fuck valves! Welcome to the future.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318188213

Yeah there are two potential areas of improvement a more heat resistant valve material and conducting more heat away from the valve. Copper beryllium vavle guides and seats are much better heat conductors than iron, that is why they are used for titanium valves(which dissipate heat very poorly but are light and strong). The only problem is copper beryllium is much softer than iron and so may not last as long. I am not sure but some of the newer sintered metal valve seats may transfer heat better than the cast iron seats that I think are standard on miata heads.

As for valves I looked at different exhaust valve materials-supertech will make you inconel valves for about $30 per valve but they have a minimum run of 50 per size.
Ferrea was a bit more expensive.
Manley I think has their extreme duty valves in inconel. Their severe duty valves have more heat resistance than the typical 21-4N stainless that supertech uses.
Flyin miata sells inconel valves that are relatively cheap now-I don't know who makes them.

I noticed this On FM's site a while back.

http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?...5%20%201990-93

Note: I have burned exhaust valves twice with FM built motors These showed up just after I last rebuilt my motor. I suspect exhaust valves are the weak link in my motor now.

In my opinion the standard replacement valves Spartech etc. are inadequate for track driven cars over 300hp. The picture on FM’s site of a bad exhaust valve is of the fancy black nitrided stainless valve with burned pits in the seat. I actually think stock valves might be better than these.

I have a set of 323 GTR sodium filled valves but they are not oversized and I haven’t put them in anything yet. I bet they would be as good as Inconel.

Bob

I bet they would be significantly better. Sodium valves are typically $60-70/ea from OEMs, whereas you can get Inconel on the aftermarket for $30.

the sodium valves where developed when mazda had a full on rally program, id agree with Savington that they are the superior choice.

also the SR20DET sodium exhaust valves are supposedly a drop in solution for the BP. (I have not confirmed this)

Could you bore the stem of a stainless valve and replace it with sodium? that'd be awesome.

Were the sodium valves only for the 1.8l? also will valves for the 1.8l interchange with the 1.6l?

only for 1.8L GTR motor, dont know if they swap in the 1.6

They Won't fit a 1.6l

I will say I've melted down forged pistons in a GTR powered GTX a couple times now and the exhaust valves stayed fine. Don’t ask me why the original owner ditched the GTR pistons. The GTR pistons are the only ones that were actually designed to utilize the oil squirters as they had an internal galley that channeled the oil squirter oil through the piston to pull heat from the upper ring land area instead of just the bottom of the piston. The GTR pistons were actually two materials as well. The ring land portion was cast Iron and somewhat impervious to wear or extreme abuse.

Bob

Some much swaps between the 2 I wasn't sure but good to know.

Yeah the GTR motor was beefy for what it was, too bad mazda never applied that tech to any other BP.

I am getting closer to choose the exhaust valves for the new motor.
Has anyone had experience from Sodium valves or Inconel valves since last years discussion?

hrk
~1500 lbs locost with 300 hp engine being built for track.

FM sells inconel valves now. My engine was done before they became available, so I have no experience with them. I assume they're quality pieces and they're a lot less expensive than previously discussed.

The Corvette only uses Titanium valves on the intake, and sodium filled valves on the exhaust.

Titanium isn't a good material for the high temps of an exhaust valve. Since intake valves are larger in size than exhaust valves, Titanium is used to reduce the mass of the intake valve.

Supertech has Inconel +1 exhaust valves on the shelf for the BP. We can get them for $27/valve ($216/set of 8). If you're doing +1 valves in a forced induction head, it's a no-brainer upgrade.

It's funny, when this topic first came up 2 years it was such a radical idea, the guy was hassled for a page saying it was a waste of money, spend his money elsewhere, don't waste your time. And now it is "no brainer" upgrade for +1 BP engines.

They weren't 216/set.

xceldyne makes titanium valves, thats all they make you could get custom ones made pretty fast i bet. They sell them with nice TIN coatings too. You will need to install beryllium copper valve seats to run titanium valves reliably. Good luck

Precisely. I'm still waiting to pull my engine to pull the head and get it machined, but they were a pretty good deal, around a grand for springs, valves and a SuB setup.

Two years ago, you couldn't get them off the shelf. Today, it's an $80 upgrade over a standard set of +1 backcut SS valves. Forgive me for making progress in bringing high-end parts to the community at reasonable prices. :jerkit:

The cost is not relevant for the point I am making.

That's fantastic that you bring high end parts to our community for reasonable costs. How about a set for a 1.6?

I was just reading the thread, the guy wasn't concerned with the $$$ side of things he just wanted to know where he could have them made or where to buy them. Then a page of "you don't need them, spend your money elsewhere, why, etc" It just amuses me that once someone thinks outside of the box, everyone jumps their shit.

I'm not starting a debate or a pissing contest.

Cost vs Gain was exactly why people were convincing him its unnecessary.

You can make all the points you want, but when someone tries to stuff $1000 valves into a 20 year old engine that, on its best day, won't even touch the more modern and better designed/developed engines, I'm gonna tell em its probably silly.

On the other hand, if you can get baller new/cool parts for a very small premium over inferior/older parts, you bet we'll tell you its a good idea.

Does that make sense?

If it doesn't, give up.

Dann

I see this all the time on this forum, majority on here own miatas cause they are cheap and can be fast. Its not the reason i own mine, and some of us like to burn money for the hell of it, you can always make more.

You understand my point. Your car is 100% badass, and I am sure there have been a lot of things you have done that was outside of the "norm" and people asked you countless times why you did what you did, or you should have done it this way and not the way you're doing it. It's like me building a 1.6, sure, to most it is a waste of money. But I want to build it because I want to see what kind of power I can make out of it. The same reason I have a spare head to blow a bunch of money on doing port and polish, cams, big valves, springs etc etc. Not because I look at it as a 20 year old relic (which it is) but I look at it as a learning experience. Porting my own head, clearancing the lifter bores myself, and all the stuff that goes along with that.

dude

lol

If that's your objective, to blow a ton of money in order to learn a thing or two, by all means. I have no argument against that.

What I learned at an early age though is that its so much easier and cheaper to learn from others' mistakes. Also much "free" advice from reputable/smart people has managed to save me thousands of dollars over the years, and I still had a ton of very fun cars and don't regret anything.

I'm nothing against your train of thought, you met me and know how I am. I just prefer to do things differently. I leave the costly mistakes I make for the times where I cant gain the knowledge for free/cheap.

To be able to "go outside the box" usually means spending a TON of money, and is very rarely worth it. I save that kinda stuff for people that don't care about their money or have so much of it that they just don't care either way. I believe many of the "regulars" here are similar minded (at least in this specific topic) and therefore question threads like this.

I think you're a bit bitter at people hating on the 1.6 and try to start arguments that really don't matter.
you won't change the miata world/community and they will always be cheap and thrifty.
/rant